A preview of what's to come in 2012?

[gunderwood]

And given that slavery would've continued otherwise,

Slavery was considered a dying institution and plans were being made to gradually eliminate the practice in the South, something which did not occur to the yankee regime until halfway through the war when they saw their cash cow slipping away.

WAAAH! THOSE BROWN PEOPLE HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS TO ME! WAAAAH!!

But, sure. Let's continue to bleat about it being over slavery and not any of the other things. That makes it easier to embrace the agenda of Lincoln's long line of protege, despicable "soft" tyrants, every last one of them.

The war ended 135 years ago, bro. YOU LOST. Get over it.

Not under a single president since has government SHRUNK. Not one. I dare you to prove me wrong.

Never claimed otherwise. Matter of fact, I agree with you on that point 100%. Our government definitely needs to be shunk, big time. Unfortunately, by your own admission, no Republican has done it, either. Maybe we ought to reconsider this notion that the Republicans are our "saviours"?

The 14th Amendment was enacted under coercion and FORCED citizenship in the uS on everyone. Rather than being a citizen of the sovereign state in which you resided, you were now a subject of the realm. Privileged to the same despotism as everyone else - unless you were a white Southern landowner, in which case you were taxed and excised to death while your land, your wealth and your property were divvied up as spoils.

And it continues to this very day. Disgusting.

Disgusting and disturbing how many people believe the onerous yankee lie.

Here, I'll fix it for ya.

The 14th Amendment was enacted due to coercion and FORCED slavery in the uS on just about everyone who wasn't white. Rather than being a citizen of the sovereign state in which you resided, you were always a subject of the slavemaster. Privileged to the same despotism as everyone else not white - unless you were a Native American, in which case you were driven in forced marches to death while your land, your wealth and your property were divvied up as spoils.

And it continues to this very day. Disgusting.

Disgusting and disturbing how many people believe the onerous redneck, Confederate-worshiping revisionism.

Fixed now.

@CowboyT

Might I suggest your read up on the carpetbaggers and what happened to the South during Reconstruction a bit? The North was not pure as the driven snow. In fact, Reconstruction was very much a way for the South to pay for the North's losses and as retribution. Lincoln was against such actions. He saw that punishing the South further would just bread resentment. The South suffered some great atrocities after the war at the hands of the carpetbaggers and freed blacks who were manipulated by the carpetbaggers. I.e. a lot of the freed blacks had sufficient votes to get the carpetbaggers and other freed blacks voted into State office, but they couldn't even read the bills being past. I know this because I've read up beyond what is in most US history textbooks which are written to be PC.

I would also suggest you read up on Lincoln and his views on slavery. He didn't free the slaves because it was the right thing to do, he did it for one reason only, to save the union. A bunch of enslaved blacks meant virtually nothing to him as far as the Civil War was concerned unless they were part of his save the union strategy...he said as much several times.

Heck, I'm a Yankee by birth and even I know that we did some awful things to the South post-war. However, it isn't PC to say so and the victors have written the history books.

[zephyp]

Who is John Galt?

[VBshooter]

http://southernheritage411.com/bc.shtml

Another side of the Civil War rarely discussed or even acknowledged.. It was a strange and treachorous time..This view destroys a lot of myths that get thrown around all too often by the unknowing and the unbeilevers,

[LFS]

I wasn't speaking of the Atlas Shrugged character. As you pointed out, it is just fiction. I was speaking of the real-world experience embodied in the expression "going Galt" as popularized by Prof. Glenn Reynolds and Pajamas Media. Reynolds has noted that a lot of people, mostly in small businesses, have decided to cut back on their productivity from previous years because the extra tax burdens don't make it worth their time anymore. Examples of this are doctors in private practice only seeing patients three days a week where previously they worked five days a week.

Want to make a bet of it?

What would be the objective measurable outcome on which to place the bet? That in 10 years we do or don't have an elected head of government? In 10 years our national debt is back down to the same percentage of GDP as it was in 2000? I don't know if there is a way to measure who is wrong or who is right in this, but if you have an idea....

[gunderwood]

I wasn't speaking of the Atlas Shrugged character. As you pointed out, it is just fiction. I was speaking of the real-world experience embodied in the expression "going Galt" as popularized by Prof. Glenn Reynolds and Pajamas Media. Reynolds has noted that a lot of people, mostly in small businesses, have decided to cut back on their productivity from previous years because the extra tax burdens don't make it worth their time anymore. Examples of this are doctors in private practice only seeing patients three days a week where previously they worked five days a week.

Please provide a reference to this because all a quick Google search came up with was half ignorant comments.

No, the entire story is based around those ideas I presented in the previous post. Yes, the character Galt start it, but that was one, if not the of the major theme of the book. Rand virtually ignored (more like assumed) that what you are stating is true. Her primary argument throughout that book and through all of her "hero" characters (which is basically all of her main characters) was not that that if you destroy the incentive to create wealth that people will work less. No, her argument was that it is ethically questionable to support such a society and what you should do when a society reaches that point. If Prof. Reynolds (law) and Pajamas Media is using it in the context you describe, I question if they ever bothered to read the book.

Again, Rand assumes what you are stating to be true and nothing more. The character Galt and those who have "gone Galt" never belabor that point. Instead, they debate and struggle with what is to be done with a society that is willing to vote their wealth away. Rands answer, let it die...to continue to support an ethically challenged system is to be an enabler and makes you just as guilty as those who commit the theft. Rand argues that the ethical thing to do is to remove your support from that society.

Out of curiosity, have you read the book or just what others have said about it? I've only read the unabridged version (nearly 900 pages), so perhaps someone has put out a shortened version that is like the Hollywood films these days.

Want to make a bet of it?

What would be the objective measurable outcome on which to place the bet? That in 10 years we do or don't have an elected head of government? In 10 years our national debt is back down to the same percentage of GDP as it was in 2000? I don't know if there is a way to measure who is wrong or who is right in this, but if you have an idea....

Percentages won't work because they could claim victory through inflation or redefining all sorts of metrics (which they do all the time to make things appear better than they are). Even then, Clinton only reduced the debt through accounting tricks. I.e. it wasn't real. The only real way to measure it is in absolute dollars. If the budget is actually balanced, the national debt will not increase one penny.

I'll give them a 2 year buffer until the 2012 elections. The actual incurred national debt on election night 2012 (not projected debt due to unfunded programs or allocations not yet spent), will not be smaller than the national debt on election night for 2016. That gives them 2 years to gather momentum and 4 years to execute. E.g. if the debt on election night 2012 is $15T, it must be less than $15T for you to win.

[Reverenddel]

"YOU LOST. Get over it."-Cowboy T...

Then why are you in the South again? If it's for economic reasons, or freedoms in your 2ndAm, or lower taxes... we didn't lose...

We just changed tactics. Because you CANNOT win the presidency without THE SOUTH. There is a migration from the NorthEast TO THE SOUTH! Those on the LEFT coast are migrating where? TO THE SOUTH!

So we DID NOT lose, we just took you financially, politically, and with our charm, and social graces in a totally different war!

Oh no... WE WON! With a biscuit, and gravy on the side!

It might settle up this NEW breed of "Carpetbagger" who insists on telling we "lowly inbred rednecks/hillbillies" how we're doing it "ALL WRONG"!

I ,for one, am SICK of hearing how "bad" it is in the Commonwealth with all us "lowbrow"folks. Don't like us? MOVE BACK TO WHERE EVER YOU ARE FROM, AND LEAVE US BE!

[wylde007]

I ,for one, am SICK of hearing how "bad" it is in the Commonwealth with all us "lowbrow"folks. Don't like us? MOVE BACK TO WHERE EVER YOU ARE FROM, AND LEAVE US BE!

Which is all we ever asked in the first place but they just couldn't let go of the revenue stream which was driving the yankee economy and industry.

Excises, fees and usury were all employed to burden Southern states and Southern businesses, whether they participated in chattel slavery (6%) or not (the other 94%).

Just leave us be. Why is that so hard?

Because what is government without people to bully about?

[Reverenddel]

Let me clarify.

NOT ALL YANKEES ARE CARPETBAGGERS!

There are some from the NorthEast who come here, embrace the Southern Gentile culture, and accept that this is NOT their former homes...and understand it's RUDENESS to put upon your host.

The main issues I seem to have with folks are from OUT WEST, not UP NORTH! Usually Southern Cal, Chicago, Detroit, and even parts of Indiana seem to have this "Come Uppance" as if I have been doing it "wrong" all my life.

I don't understand why people move here, and expect the culture to change FOR YOU! You moved HERE! If you didn't know what you were gonna get when you got here? Much apologizes. If you thought we were going to just cave into your mindset, and forget the oppression from a Federalist government from generation to generation? Guess again.

Anytime the Fed needs people, resources, or cheap labor, they come SOUTH!

IE: COAL MINES, OIL RIGS, AGRICULTURE, MACHINING, MILITARY PERSONNEL, Etc, Etc!

So hate us all you want... but we make this country turn...

[gunderwood]

Let me clarify.

NOT ALL YANKEES ARE CARPETBAGGERS!

There are some from the NorthEast who come here, embrace the Southern Gentile culture, and accept that this is NOT their former homes...and understand it's RUDENESS to put upon your host.

The main issues I seem to have with folks are from OUT WEST, not UP NORTH! Usually Southern Cal, Chicago, Detroit, and even parts of Indiana seem to have this "Come Uppance" as if I have been doing it "wrong" all my life.

I don't understand why people move here, and expect the culture to change FOR YOU! You moved HERE! If you didn't know what you were gonna get when you got here? Much apologizes. If you thought we were going to just cave into your mindset, and forget the oppression from a Federalist government from generation to generation? Guess again.

Anytime the Fed needs people, resources, or cheap labor, they come SOUTH!

IE: COAL MINES, OIL RIGS, AGRICULTURE, MACHINING, MILITARY PERSONNEL, Etc, Etc!

So hate us all you want... but we make this country turn...

Interesting isn't it? Those same arrogant, better than you, high lift types from <insert big city here, particularly if it is in the North or West coast> were the ones traveling the world and gave American's a bad name. They would show up and expect everyone to speak English, cater to their every whim, complain over how dirty it is, listen to why they are so much better than what ever foreign location they were visiting, etc. They made us all out to be a$$hats the world over.

Then they come down South (I did too from PA, but without the attitude as I didn't grow up there) and do the same thing. They are here because the gitten is good (or at least better than wherever they came from), but somehow we are backward, ignorant, and they need to straighten us out.

We don't need nor want to be told what to do, so leave us alone!

[Tweaker]

That's me! I'm from Obongo's nest, but I consider myself a political refugee. I have gotten out of traffic tickets down mhea for saying similar! I have been the beneficiary of many things since moving to the south; some political, some economic, some climate/terrain. I love it! Life is too short to be damned fool enough to essentially paratroop into enemy territory and attempt to recalibrate life to the place you left. Why did you leave in the first place if it was so great?

CowboyT is in NOtVA (I add the lil t to make it a more accurate abbreviation!), so I don't think he is really in the south, but rather the belly of the beast. He does still get most of the benefit though, thanks to VCDL and pre-emption. He did have OC in SF, though the gun had to be unloaded! What in the hell is the point of that again?

[CowboyT]

Let me clarify.

NOT ALL YANKEES ARE CARPETBAGGERS!

There are some from the NorthEast who come here, embrace the Southern Gentile culture, and accept that this is NOT their former homes...and understand it's RUDENESS to put upon your host.

The main issues I seem to have with folks are from OUT WEST, not UP NORTH! Usually Southern Cal, Chicago, Detroit, and even parts of Indiana seem to have this "Come Uppance" as if I have been doing it "wrong" all my life.

I don't understand why people move here, and expect the culture to change FOR YOU! You moved HERE! If you didn't know what you were gonna get when you got here? Much apologizes. If you thought we were going to just cave into your mindset, and forget the oppression from a Federalist government from generation to generation? Guess again.

Anytime the Fed needs people, resources, or cheap labor, they come SOUTH!

IE: COAL MINES, OIL RIGS, AGRICULTURE, MACHINING, MILITARY PERSONNEL, Etc, Etc!

So hate us all you want... but we make this country turn...

Interesting isn't it? Those same arrogant, better than you, high lift types from <insert big city here, particularly if it is in the North or West coast> were the ones traveling the world and gave American's a bad name. They would show up and expect everyone to speak English, cater to their every whim, complain over how dirty it is, listen to why they are so much better than what ever foreign location they were visiting, etc. They made us all out to be a$$hats the world over.

Then they come down South (I did too from PA, but without the attitude as I didn't grow up there) and do the same thing. They are here because the gitten is good (or at least better than wherever they came from), but somehow we are backward, ignorant, and they need to straighten us out.

We don't need nor want to be told what to do, so leave us alone!

OK, if that's really what you believe, then you get your wish. Thanks for letting me try out your AR and other stuff that weekend, it was appreciated...and it did help me to make a decision.

[ksanftleben]

Rand argues that the ethical thing to do is to remove your support from that society.

Exactly:

"They need some sort of sanction from us. I don't . . . know the nature of that sanction – but, Dagny, I know that if we value our lives we must not give it to them." - Hank Rearden

"Evil is impotent and has no power but that which we let it extort from us. . . . I saw that evil was impotent . . . and the only weapon of its triumph was the willingness of the good to serve it." - John Galt

R/Kurt

[LFS]

I wasn't speaking of the Atlas Shrugged character. As you pointed out, it is just fiction. I was speaking of the real-world experience embodied in the expression "going Galt" as popularized by Prof. Glenn Reynolds and Pajamas Media. Reynolds has noted that a lot of people, mostly in small businesses, have decided to cut back on their productivity from previous years because the extra tax burdens don't make it worth their time anymore. Examples of this are doctors in private practice only seeing patients three days a week where previously they worked five days a week.

Please provide a reference to this because all a quick Google search came up with was half ignorant comments.

As I stated, don't get wrapped up in your investment of reading the fiction:

http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/71770/

And regarding the ethical dilemma you describe: as Mark Walters is fond of saying, "Patriots don't run."

Want to make a bet of it?

What would be the objective measurable outcome on which to place the bet? That in 10 years we do or don't have an elected head of government? In 10 years our national debt is back down to the same percentage of GDP as it was in 2000? I don't know if there is a way to measure who is wrong or who is right in this, but if you have an idea....

Percentages won't work because they could claim victory through inflation or redefining all sorts of metrics (which they do all the time to make things appear better than they are). Even then, Clinton only reduced the debt through accounting tricks. I.e. it wasn't real. The only real way to measure it is in absolute dollars. If the budget is actually balanced, the national debt will not increase one penny.

I'll give them a 2 year buffer until the 2012 elections. The actual incurred national debt on election night 2012 (not projected debt due to unfunded programs or allocations not yet spent), will not be smaller than the national debt on election night for 2016. That gives them 2 years to gather momentum and 4 years to execute. E.g. if the debt on election night 2012 is $15T, it must be less than $15T for you to win.

But outright dollars in debt won't be an accurate measure of ability to handle a debt load without it being tied to earning ability. If I make only $100/year and must pay $50 in interest, half of what I earn goes to financing my debt. But if I make $100,000/year and must pay $50 in interest, that's a whole different story.

[Mindflayer]

I believe someone posted about courtesy on this forum....

We live in the here and now. There are some that cling to the Confederate ideal based on their limited understanding of it as being some sort of "white power" nation. There are some that cling to the idea that the Confederacy was formed solely to keep slaves without understanding the other economic reasons. The answer? Educate and move on.

The Civil War has been done for more than 100 years. Yes, what happened before, during, and after by both sides was reprehensible, but it's time to move on as Americans. We have enough enemies outside to bear ill will to fellow citizens. The treatment of non-whites was disgusting, but it's time to move on. The actions of the carpet baggers was disgusting, but it's time to move on.

We can relive the what-ifs and the coulda beens and shoulda not happeneds. Better, in my pragmatic mind, to focus on what state the Union is in now - Southern, Northern, and Western brothers alike - and fix this mess. We need to do this before the outside forces that threaten our way of life overpower a weakened United States.

[Reverenddel]

The problem is that Carpetbagging STILL EXIST!

If you move to an area with a low opinion of it's residents, and an attitude of superiority, with only the provision of making money, and fun of the population.

You are, by defintion, a "carpetbagger".

If my like-minded Individualist bretheren who wish to remove the mantle of a repressive Federal government who abuses it's authority, and takes from the productive citizens to give to the slacktastic denizens who provide NOTHING to society, come to my Commonwealth, or rise up in neighboring states...

They have my support, my friendship, and my assistance when needed.

However. After years of putting up with smug repressions of attitude that I'm a silly inbred hillbilly from those WITHIN the borders of the Republic, I'm sure that my Gentile Southern Hospitality is starting to fray...

...just a bit (index and thumb an inch apart)

[gunderwood]

Let me clarify.

NOT ALL YANKEES ARE CARPETBAGGERS!

There are some from the NorthEast who come here, embrace the Southern Gentile culture, and accept that this is NOT their former homes...and understand it's RUDENESS to put upon your host.

The main issues I seem to have with folks are from OUT WEST, not UP NORTH! Usually Southern Cal, Chicago, Detroit, and even parts of Indiana seem to have this "Come Uppance" as if I have been doing it "wrong" all my life.

I don't understand why people move here, and expect the culture to change FOR YOU! You moved HERE! If you didn't know what you were gonna get when you got here? Much apologizes. If you thought we were going to just cave into your mindset, and forget the oppression from a Federalist government from generation to generation? Guess again.

Anytime the Fed needs people, resources, or cheap labor, they come SOUTH!

IE: COAL MINES, OIL RIGS, AGRICULTURE, MACHINING, MILITARY PERSONNEL, Etc, Etc!

So hate us all you want... but we make this country turn...

Interesting isn't it? Those same arrogant, better than you, high lift types from <insert big city here, particularly if it is in the North or West coast> were the ones traveling the world and gave American's a bad name. They would show up and expect everyone to speak English, cater to their every whim, complain over how dirty it is, listen to why they are so much better than what ever foreign location they were visiting, etc. They made us all out to be a$$hats the world over.

Then they come down South (I did too from PA, but without the attitude as I didn't grow up there) and do the same thing. They are here because the gitten is good (or at least better than wherever they came from), but somehow we are backward, ignorant, and they need to straighten us out.

We don't need nor want to be told what to do, so leave us alone!

OK, if that's really what you believe, then you get your wish. Thanks for letting me try out your AR and other stuff that weekend, it was appreciated...and it did help me to make a decision.

I think you took that personal when it wasn't intended as such. For example:

I have no desire to move to NYC. The local culture is not for me. If I can avoid it, I will never live there. However, for me to move to NYC and then begin complaining that Central Park doesn't allow me to hunt squirrels and pigeons with my 50BMG is just asinine. When in Rome...

What bothers a lot of people in VA about the immigrants from the North and West coasts is they do just that. They move here and then complain we have guns. Complain we allow hunting. Complain we don't have to register out guns. Complain about everything that makes this VA and not NYC.

If you move to a new state or county, I expect that you respect their local customs and culture, not try to replace it with yours. I've lived in lots of states (grew up military) and always adopted the local culture. That doesn't change your heritage, nor does it mean you have to agree.

As far as I can tell, you personally seem to be adapting fairly well. Adapt and respect does not mean agree with.

Edit: I am not a native Virginian either, but I have adapted to this different culture and have learned from it. I respect it, just like I respect the various other cultures I have lived in...even when I don't particularly care for them. When I don't like the culture, I don't go there in the first place or I move out of there ASAP. By birth I'm a Yankee. That is my heritage and I can't change it, for better or worse.

[gunderwood]

But outright dollars in debt won't be an accurate measure of ability to handle a debt load without it being tied to earning ability. If I make only $100/year and must pay $50 in interest, half of what I earn goes to financing my debt. But if I make $100,000/year and must pay $50 in interest, that's a whole different story.

By all accounts the debt burden capacity of the United States is reaching a critical point. I.e. 90-100% GDP (approx. 13.6T/14.7T = 92.5%). Keynesian economists generally say it doesn't matter, etc., but virtually all of the other economists are very concerned. The Keynesian's want everyone to believe that it will be different (hence the title of this book: http://www.amazon.com/This-Time-Differe ... 0691142165) and that these debt levels are sustainable.

If you have maxed out your credit cards and receive a 10% raise, the smart thing to do it not to increase your credit limit 10% and spend it, but rather to begin paying off debt. Technically, your debt percentage would not have changed, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

The problem is that a 92.5% debt ratio is too much. It leaves us teetering on the edge of disaster. As unexpected things come up we have no savings or credit reserves to use.

Also, the unfunded liabilities are extreme. Welfare programs that are suppose to have huge reserves do not and must be paid for out of the general fund. If the debt is approaching unsustainable levels today, what happens when we pile on more?

For those reasons and more, the US must get serious about balancing the budget. No new debt should be taken on. We must start living withing the tax revenue. Even that may not be enough because as I pointed out, that simply maintains the status quo and it isn't great. A growing economy would increase tax revenues, but unless we actually spend less than is collected, we aren't paying any of that debt back. I.e. we have an interest only loan and the principle keeps increasing.

[Reverenddel]

"If you move to a new state or county, I expect that you respect their local customs and culture, not try to replace it with yours.........I am not a native Virginian either, but I have adapted to this different culture and have learned from it. I respect it, just like I respect the various other cultures I have lived in...even when I don't particularly care for them."-Gunderwood.

And thank you for that! We're glad to have you! Sit a spell, have some sweet tea, maybe a biscuit, especially with sausage gravy.

That's all we natives ask. Stop besmirching us, and our culture! If you show us a modicum of respect, we'll respond in kind.

[gunderwood]

As I stated, don't get wrapped up in your investment of reading the fiction:

http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/71770/

UPDATE: Can you say “going John Galt?” Upper-Income Taxpayers Look for Ways to Sidestep Obama Tax-Hike Plan. “A 63-year-old attorney based in Lafayette, La., who asked not to be named, told ABCNews.com that she plans to cut back on her business to get her annual income under the quarter million mark should the Obama tax plan be passed by Congress and become law.

The phrase is used wrong.

While Rands book is fiction, it is heavily philosophical (this is common other genres too. e.g. sci-fi and lots of classical novels). The book is not meant to be taken literally, but rather to explore ideas and outcomes. In this sense, these philosophical novels are immensely useful to society.

While the literal actions of the characters are often not recommended, that does not mean that the ethical and moral issues explored are not valuable or applicable. However, it helps to know what those literal actions were so you can discuss the dilemma correctly.

And regarding the ethical dilemma you describe: as Mark Walters is fond of saying, "Patriots don't run."

I'm going to guess that since you ignored my question about actually having read the book, you in fact have not. In Atlas Shrugged, the concept of going Galt was anything but running. In fact, one characters specific application of it would probably be considered terrorism by the US government today. Even setting aside that specific character, anyone actually attempting to go Galt is likely to get a bullet in their head or at least thrown in jail. For all intents and purposes, the US code and regulations prohibit anyone withdrawing their financial support of the beast.

You are still trying to defend the concept, which you learned of from a questionable comment. Read the source and then lets talk. Rand does not mince words nor ideas...veiling her philosophy was out of the question.

If you want, I re-read it too.

[Mindflayer]

Reverenddel and gunderwood - agreed with the premise there. You adapt to the locality (also a military brat). Respect and consideration does not mean you agree.

However, it is up to the residents at your new place to extend some sort of hospitality. If I drive into a town and get crap when pumping gas for being "a gook", that doesn't sit right with me (mostly since I am a "Jap"). Culture is one thing - being a rude racist is another (and yes, I am aware not every racist has a rebel flag on his pickup truck).

One nice thing about being in IT is that there is a chance of working where I want to live, versus living where I need to work. I have a friend that works for a company in Chicago - gun friendly! - and lives in WV. If I ever have to work in DC or MD, I will not be moving out of the Commonwealth.