I'm not sure what I want

[Drewsifer]

Thanks for the kick in the pants I needed guys!

Went out an bought a Winchester 27 piece cleaning kit, a bore snake, Hoppes #9, and some CLP. Sat down last and cleaned the 1911. Just did the MN right now. And it wasn't any harder than I remembered. I just had to go slow, pay attention, and make sure I remembered how to put it back together! I now have two clean and lightly oiled weapons in my house.

I am definitely going to the next Hite Hallow shoot! I told the wife with or without her I'm going to be there.

Again, thanks for the help!

[user]

Let me tell you about my prejudice against modern military/tactical/police type firearms. These are not designed to be effective. They are designed to be scary, easily replaceable, and easy to carry sufficient ammunition for, given that the average grunt doesn't know how to shoot, won't take proper care of his firearm, and will probably lose it in the field. He'll use up tons of ammo shooting into the air, but because it's very lightweight, he can carry a lot. In WWII and Korea, guys were shooting all their ammo killing the atmosphere, then getting killed at the enemy's convenience, because .30-06 ammo was relatively large and heavy.

The AR style rifles solved all that - short cartridge case, light bullets, cheap equipment. I, myself, don't want anything that requires recoil buffers or "O" rings. I want stuff I can sight in once, shoot precisely, and be pretty sure it's always going to work.

That said, given that you've got a rifle, get a handgun for self-defense.

Let me point out further, that our host, Rick of All-In-General does sell gun related products and might be a good first-step in selecting what you need.

[Drewsifer]

Let me tell you about my prejudice against modern military/tactical/police type firearms. These are not designed to be effective. They are designed to be scary, easily replaceable, and easy to carry sufficient ammunition for, given that the average grunt doesn't know how to shoot, won't take proper care of his firearm, and will probably lose it in the field. He'll use up tons of ammo shooting into the air, but because it's very lightweight, he can carry a lot. In WWII and Korea, guys were shooting all their ammo killing the atmosphere, then getting killed at the enemy's convenience, because .30-06 ammo was relatively large and heavy.

The AR style rifles solved all that - short cartridge case, light bullets, cheap equipment. I, myself, don't want anything that requires recoil buffers or "O" rings. I want stuff I can sight in once, shoot precisely, and be pretty sure it's always going to work.

That said, given that you've got a rifle, get a handgun for self-defense.

Let me point out further, that our host, Rick of All-In-General does sell gun related products and might be a good first-step in selecting what you need.

May I ask, have you been in the service before? I know from my experience, I disagree with a lot of what you've said. However you may have different experiences than me, so I just wanted to ask. I don't think military/tactical/police rifles are designed to be scary. I think there designed to be functional, and easy to maintain.

I also do have a pistol, a Rock Island Armory 1911 Compact.

[gunderwood]

Let me tell you about my prejudice against modern military/tactical/police type firearms. These are not designed to be effective. They are designed to be scary, easily replaceable, and easy to carry sufficient ammunition for, given that the average grunt doesn't know how to shoot, won't take proper care of his firearm, and will probably lose it in the field. He'll use up tons of ammo shooting into the air, but because it's very lightweight, he can carry a lot. In WWII and Korea, guys were shooting all their ammo killing the atmosphere, then getting killed at the enemy's convenience, because .30-06 ammo was relatively large and heavy.

The AR style rifles solved all that - short cartridge case, light bullets, cheap equipment. I, myself, don't want anything that requires recoil buffers or "O" rings. I want stuff I can sight in once, shoot precisely, and be pretty sure it's always going to work.

That said, given that you've got a rifle, get a handgun for self-defense.

Let me point out further, that our host, Rick of All-In-General does sell gun related products and might be a good first-step in selecting what you need.

May I ask, have you been in the service before? I know from my experience, I disagree with a lot of what you've said. However you may have different experiences than me, so I just wanted to ask. I don't think military/tactical/police rifles are designed to be scary. I think there designed to be functional, and easy to maintain.

I also do have a pistol, a Rock Island Armory 1911 Compact.

+1

They are designed to be functional, not scary. There were "black" guns before the AR. but a lot of those had wooden pistol grips and such. The "black" is just a logical extension of metal treatments as more of the firearm became metal vice wood.

Rifles and carbines are designed to be effective and are vastly superior to pistols. Just like how poor pistol ammo (particularly FMJ) has poor performance when compared to good pistol ammo, so too is it for rifles/carbines. The problem with 5.56mm is the military refusing to use better bullets...until the Marines SOST rounds just this year. Just getting Open Tipped Match (OTM) bullets oked for sniper use was a PITA. In fact the Army baned their use for a short time in the sand box just a couple of years ago despite a long standing ruling from the 80s! The SOST rounds, specifically MK318, are the first "controlled expansion" rounds I've ever seen used by the military. Even then, they hemmed and hawed around for years before moving forward with that design and even then they rationalized it away with statements that it is only designed for barrier penetration so if it also expands controllably (i.e. mushrooms) it isn't their fault. I.e. they aren't violating the dum-dum bullet rule since they didn't design the bullet to do that...despite Federal modifying their controlled expansion hunting round for it.

The biggest problem with 5.56mm lethality is the stupid requirements to penetrate soft armor at ridiculous distances which yielded the awful M855 round. IIRC, the spec was to defeat a NATO Kevlar helmet at 1100 yards (it may have been meters). It took decades before they realized the issue with M855 was fleet yaw. Each rifle shot it differently and depending on the angle of attack it would perform very well or awful.

Edit: There were lots of failures even with 30-06 and .308. There is no weapon system or bullet that works all of the time. The M1 and M14 had flaws too. A lot of their perceived perfection, particularly the M1, was because of their superiority over the alternatives...and the fading of time.

[CowboyT]

Look at it this way. The Mosin-Nagant is so trouble-free that it fought against itself in war...and won every time! And in the highly unlikely event that the rifle should jam, there's always that 100-meter-long bayonet, so Bambi's goin' down one way or another.

[zephyp]

Why oh why do twit politicians create wars and then create rules governing the use of weaponry to fight them. I dont know about the rest of you vets but I was trained to use whatever I could to maim, destroy, and/or kill the enemy...regardless of where it came from or who made it - us, them, or God...

[SgtBill]

Let me tell you about my prejudice against modern military/tactical/police type firearms. These are not designed to be effective. They are designed to be scary, easily replaceable, and easy to carry sufficient ammunition for, given that the average grunt doesn't know how to shoot, won't take proper care of his firearm, and will probably lose it in the field. He'll use up tons of ammo shooting into the air, but because it's very lightweight, he can carry a lot. In WWII and Korea, guys were shooting all their ammo killing the atmosphere, then getting killed at the enemy's convenience, because .30-06 ammo was relatively large and heavy.

The AR style rifles solved all that - short cartridge case, light bullets, cheap equipment. I, myself, don't want anything that requires recoil buffers or "O" rings. I want stuff I can sight in once, shoot precisely, and be pretty sure it's always going to work.

That said, given that you've got a rifle, get a handgun for self-defense.

Let me point out further, that our host, Rick of All-In-General does sell gun related products and might be a good first-step in selecting what you need.

Do you in fact have ANY Military or Law Enforcement Experience, because you have made a very broad statement that is bullshit in my opinion. Before you ask, yes I have exp. in both the Military and in Law Enforcement.
Bill

[Mindflayer]

Bill:

Well, I can tell you that LEO and military use is nothing - NOTHING - compared to what we have going on here at the local CRSE*. I have recently gotten approval to fund an upgrade to the Bushmaster ACR chambered in 6.8 mm Remington SPC to counter the gangbangers wearing Level 3 body armor and carrying their obsolete SCAR 16s. We recently had an incident where the son of the Chick-Fil-A manager was captured by 2 hooligans armed with the SCAR 16s, and our regular issue ARs could not penetrate the shelter of the bench and register. Luckily, I had a non-regulation rifle chambered in .416 Barrett and was able to take them out without harm to the boy. I was made honorary Employee of the Month and got free waffle fry upgrades for life, but that is a story for another time.

Unlike the police and military sitting on their butts having fun with "training", we live the real life every day and our equipment gets used, and used hard. We had supposedly military-grade gear fail on us with alarming frequency which is why we take SpecOps gear and modify it to make it even more accurate and mission-worthy. I recently had someone from the Joint Chiefs come to my office to discuss how they can apply some of our logistics, gunsmithing knowledge, and tactics to soldiers in the sandbox. He treated me to lunch and I could tell he was impressed with my knowledge and to the way the Chick-Fil-A manager immediately snapped to and gave me my free waffle fries.

I hope this clarifies the situation with regard to supposed "MilSpec" gear.

*Commercial Retail Shopping Establishment.

[gunderwood]

Bill:

Well, I can tell you that LEO and military use is nothing - NOTHING - compared to what we have going on here at the local CRSE*. I have recently gotten approval to fund an upgrade to the Bushmaster ACR chambered in 6.8 mm Remington SPC to counter the gangbangers wearing Level 3 body armor and carrying their obsolete SCAR 16s. We recently had an incident where the son of the Chick-Fil-A manager was captured by 2 hooligans armed with the SCAR 16s, and our regular issue ARs could not penetrate the shelter of the bench and register. Luckily, I had a non-regulation rifle chambered in .416 Barrett and was able to take them out without harm to the boy. I was made honorary Employee of the Month and got free waffle fry upgrades for life, but that is a story for another time.

Unlike the police and military sitting on their butts having fun with "training", we live the real life every day and our equipment gets used, and used hard. We had supposedly military-grade gear fail on us with alarming frequency which is why we take SpecOps gear and modify it to make it even more accurate and mission-worthy. I recently had someone from the Joint Chiefs come to my office to discuss how they can apply some of our logistics, gunsmithing knowledge, and tactics to soldiers in the sandbox. He treated me to lunch and I could tell he was impressed with my knowledge and to the way the Chick-Fil-A manager immediately snapped to and gave me my free waffle fries.

I hope this clarifies the situation with regard to supposed "MilSpec" gear.

*Commercial Retail Shopping Establishment.

GECKO45!

[CowboyT]

Mindflayer, that was hilarious. That one oughta be saved for posterity.

@Gunderwood:

This is a Mosin Nagant. The Mosin Nagant Benchrest Association just had a national record set for a 3 shot, 100 yard group of 9.37MOA. I know, very impressive for any Russian piece!

Both of you guys are a riot!

[Drewsifer]

3. This is a Mosin Nagant. The Mosin Nagant Benchrest Association just had a national record set for a 3 shot, 100 yard group of 9.37MOA. I know, very impressive for any Russian piece!

Not sure if serious. Like, for real? Who knew the Russians could make such precision weapons!

Sat down and cleaned the MN the other day. Took about 45 minutes. But the bolt looks practically brand new. I can't wait to shoot it!

[Diomed]

Not sure if serious. Like, for real? Who knew the Russians could make such precision weapons!

It's a surplus rifle. How well it does depends on how it was treated while in service. If it was abused, it'll be very disappointing and frustrating. If it was properly maintained, it'll be a decent 2-4MOA shooter like most milsurp bolt guns.

You could also step to a Finn Mosin if you want to stay in the platform but get a better version.

[kanata67]

you can get non-corrosive 7.62x54 ammo but it is significantly more expensive than surplus. Worth it if you are using a dragonov or a romak-3 but as I don't have either I just do what the guys above recommended. The m91 is a good rifle and can be had pretty cheap. Mine is a 1923 dragoon with all matching numbers including bayonet I scored for less than $130 from http://www.classicarms.us/. The bayonet is for when the deer get frisky .

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ has stripper clips for the m91 at a very good price

I know a scope mount kit is available for the m91 but I don't have one so I can't say anything about them besides that they exist. I'm tempted to get another cheaper m91 just to find out.

[gunderwood]

3. This is a Mosin Nagant. The Mosin Nagant Benchrest Association just had a national record set for a 3 shot, 100 yard group of 9.37MOA. I know, very impressive for any Russian piece!

Not sure if serious. Like, for real? Who knew the Russians could make such precision weapons!

Sat down and cleaned the MN the other day. Took about 45 minutes. But the bolt looks practically brand new. I can't wait to shoot it!

I was joking, but Diomed is correct.