zephyp wrote:Dear Jim,
In short, most liberals (IMO) view our Constitution as a living, breathing document which was written so long ago that it is now irrelevant and no longer applies to our current society. Hence, they largely tend to ignore the rights and provisions of our Constitution except for the parts which suits them and their "progressive" agenda. As a result, we (the people) are victims of fewer liberties and rights today than when our country was founded and liberty was truly a reality (that time you mentioned that "never existed"). The liberal agenda seeks to undermine the foundation of our nation by seeking to destroy capitalism, nationalizing American industries and interests, providing hand outs to those unwilling to work, granting amnesty to illegals, mandating the purchase of health care insurance, increasing taxes to ridiculous levels, providing Constitutional rights reserved for Americans to terrorists, ...shall I continue...ah yes, growing government to enormous size, and promoting government control of virtually every aspect of our daily life. The liberal agenda is essentially anathema to virtually every tenet supported and documented by our Founders. I cannot and will not agree, support, or abide by this. It is inherently wrong. If liberals love America then why are they fighting so hard for "change." There are plenty of countries existent that mirror what liberals desire America to be. If they are unsatisfied here, then I suggest they move. If that includes you, then please have a pleasant journey.
Warmest regards,
DK
Again a most interesting post. At least you were honest enough to state how liberals view the Constitution is merely your opinion. Since facts don’t support your opinion, you needed added weight. So why not use the Founding Fathers ploy. It’s like: “Jim I’m only repeating the Founding Father’s views”. Unfortunately, historians have not precisely defined the phrase please explain? T
The Founding Fathers mean who or what to you? Are they the signers of the Declaration of Independence, The key figures prosecuting the Revolutionary War, the Framers of the Constitution, or some combination thereof? While your use of the phrase is unclear, the why is crystal clear. You sought the color of authority, the imprimatur of legitimacy.
Frankly I have no idea what your Constitutional beliefs are? Do you conceal them on purpose? If you spent more time explaining your philosophy, your theory, and less on what you assume others believe your post might be clear. Otherwise, following your logic is impossible. Unless you are simply regurgitating ideological dogma developed and promulgated by someone else. I suspect that’s precisely what you are about.
You setup your post with your usual diatribe about liberals. You imply there are only two interpretive Constitutional theories (Constitutional scholars say there are several). You follow by lamenting how these same liberals observe only those provisions with which they agree, and ignore all others. This caused you and the “people” to lose freedoms and rights you had when the country was founded. I’m confused; do you want a return to the original 1787 Constitution?
Next you posit that the liberal agenda undermines the foundation of America. That agenda is left unstated. Continuing with your flawed logic you offer up a long laundry list of ills that triumphantly proves your point. Sort of your denouement! I treated them with the seriousness I assumed you had when you wrote them.
I actually reread the Constitution before I wrote this reply. MR Z “You can’t be serious”! Your list is the standard diatribe advanced by some conservatives. If you did anything other than copy a list from some websites, you should easily answer a few questions.
1. Which article enshrines or defines capitalism under our Constitution?
2. What industry or interest has been nationalized? If you think the auto industry or even GM or Chrysler are nationalized that’s simply a Republican talking point. Btw there are some clear nationalization instances. A few examples : The Railroads in 1917, the TVA in 1939, The Resolution Trust Corporation in the late 80s. A more recent instance is the post 9/11 takeover of Airport Security by the newly created TSA. You do remember that Republicans handled the last 2? So they were liberals? Were these takeovers unconstitutional?
3. What is a government handout? How do you know who is unwilling to work? Is there some established criteria.
4. Which article covers immigration and what does it say? Why does your list blame amnesty for illegal aliens on liberals? Surely, you know the last major immigration reform bill was signed into law in 1986 by President Ronald Reagan. Not only did the act grant amnesty (I don’t think there were fines or any quid pro quo excepting weak sanctions for those employing illegals). President Reagan firmly rejected a national identity card, or a tamper proof Social Security card. Not surprisingly he was horrified by that idea. Senator John McCain was one of the sponsors of the most recently failed immigration reform legislation. Do you see the irrationality in blaming those evil liberals for all that ails America?
5. What article specifies that the provisions of the Constitution are only applicable to American citizens? Help me out with your reasoning about terrorists. Please explain how one is a terrorist before a civilian or military tribunal finds them guilty of carrying out a terrorist act? If your theory is true was there a reason we charged and tried some Japanese and Germans as war criminals?
6. What article prohibits the government from having anything to do with Health Care?
7. Can you name any modern President who has decreased the size of government? Don’t bother looking the answer is none. Btw if you look at completed Presidencies, President’s Reagan, Bush and Bush, excluding WWII, ran the highest deficits ever. Will President Obama join this group? I don’t know. President Reagan ran promising to radically down size government. Did he do it? Nope, actually he created 2 new Cabinet Departments. President Reagan also raised taxes, closed so-called tax loopholes, decreased deductions, raised the payroll tax, and the gas tax to name a few. Of course you vehemently opposed all of these actions, right?
Enough of this, if you really believe what you wrote your ire should be directed towards conservatives and liberals; Republicans and Democrats since both contributed to what in your words is wrong with America. I would be shocked if you did. Your simplistic view, i.e. liberal bad, conservative good can’t handle real world nuance. When did Republicans and Democrats unite behind a single ideology? Your posts show you are a rigid ideologue who marches to whatever tune the leadership writes.
Your misplaced reverence is for a revisionist Constitution. Your rhetoric actually aligns with anti-federalist thought. If you had an up or down vote on the Constitution, meaning no changes or modifications how would you vote? Show me how you could vote yes and still be true to your expressed beliefs.
In attempting to don the cloak of authority and legitimacy you have unwittingly done the reverse. I mean, wow! How could anyone rightfully oppose the ideas of the exceptional Founding Fathers? Unfortunately for you, like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz, what we find is an angry ordinary guy marching to the tune of right wing “puppet masters”. No critical thinking required, or wanted.
In your zeal to advance that point of view it’s odd how often you dismiss those principles and tenets of America that you dislike, therefore have no desire to uphold. You can oppose, disagree, challenge, scream, yell, jump up or down, wave your hands, and demonstrate in the streets, etc. all you want. As long as violence, either advocating or committing it, is not involved have at it. Be as loud and angry as you like. Make sure you continue to denigrate other Americans whose only fault is they have to nerve to disagree with your rigid views. Don’t just do it here, do it everywhere. Dissent, even angry, irrational dissent is actually one of those American principles enshrined in our Constitution. For that, the thanks go to the anti-federalists. I appreciate and respect your activism because you are certainly better than those who don’t participate in the national debate or vote.
You see Mr. Z I’m an eternal optimist, the more Americans hear your angry voice, I’m convinced the more the majority will reject your myopic views. Most Americans know America is an amalgamation of many different voices. Foreigners have no idea how the seeming cacophony turns into an amazing symphony. I don’t want you to leave because you and those like you are a valued part of America. However I’m secure in knowing you will never get the America you want, but neither will I.
Why? It’s called compromise! Another Constitutional principle you dislike. If there is a chief governing principle it’s compromise. It’s funny how those wedded to a an unyielding ideology, like you, hate that word. Sometimes it seems a benevolent dictator would suit them better. Before I forget, I’m curious, could you list those countries liberals want America to be? I looked at numerous liberal websites but didn’t see such a list. Goodness, the next thing you know those dastardly liberals will want to turn America over to a one World Government!
Mr Z your magnanimity was unexpected. How gracious of you to invite me to leave. Does the offer extend to my family? Let me give the nanosecond of consideration your generous offer warrants. Sorry, your answer is no. But in closing I’m happy you demonstrated what it means to be an American, along with your idea of freedom and liberty. Maybe yours is an idea all right thinking Americans should use. Maybe I can be as offensive as you. Why should I care if that person’s family can be traced to America in the 1700s. Surely the blood, sweat, tears and lives some in those families gave for the nation mean nothing. Shall we exhume their ancestors from places like Arlington National Cemetery? How about barring Democrats and Liberals from service in the Armed Forces, or any part of the National Security apparatus? How could we trust those who want to destroy America to defend us against our enemies. I trust Mr Z. checked and verified that only conservatives fight for American ideals. Could you give me the secret code? I simply can’t find a political designation on any headstone, nor have I found any such indicator on any veteran’s bed at VA hospitals, or any wounded active’s bed. Real Americans, like Mr Z, know that his love of country matters above all else! The nerve of these imposters, how dare they pretend to love America while secretly plotting to destroy it! Maybe that’s why some really do join the Armed Forces, to sabotage America. Come to think of it that has to be the hidden objective behind this openly gay thing in the military, and trying to assign women to nuclear submarines!
After we disband the Departments of Education, Labor, Housing, Health and Human Services; and end Medicaid, Temporary Assistance to Needy Families, Head Start, and all the other programs that transfer wealth to those who contribute nothing to America we could create a new and more useful Cabinet Department. Since it stems from your idea of what it means to be a real American, I suggest we name it the Department of Ideological Purity (The DIP for short). Thanks Mr Z for not leaving even a scintilla of doubt in your post about what it means to be a real American.
Respectfully Jim
Some things are beyond belief
