The Open Carry Argument

[scampbell3]

Here is the link and the text of a post made by USAcarry.com user Mainsail.
This is an essay that many OC'ers and anti-OC'ers should read. Good stuff. Mainsail makes a very compelling and logical assessment.

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-car ... ument.html

The Open Carry Argument

My primary goal when I’m out and about, besides whatever I went out and about to do, is to go about peaceably and not be the victim of a violent crime. To that end I carry a firearm whenever I go out as well as follow all the other standard safety practices like maintaining situational awareness, staying out of high crime areas, and avoiding confrontation. I also have a larger overall goal of making it through my life without shooting anyone. Simply put, I don’t want to be responsible, legally or morally, for another’s death. Those two goals might appear at first blush to be mutually exclusive, and with concealed carry it would be a difficult set of goals to realize.

Carry of any firearm or other weapon for defensive purposes is a solemn responsibility. Those of us that do (openly or concealed) are mortified by the idea, constantly promoted by the pacifists, that our behavior is more reckless because we are armed. In other words, because we carry a handgun we take more risks than we would if we were unarmed. While it would be dishonest to claim we are all responsible gun owners, it is my belief that the vast majority of us are. Regardless of what or how you carry, you need to come to the realization that you are setting yourself up to lose. Whenever you are placed in a defensive situation, you will always lose; it’s only the degree of loss that’s negotiable. Ayoob hits on this in his book, In the Gravest Extreme. He suggests tossing the robber a small wad of cash and moving off, even if you could prevail with a weapon. There’s a very good reason for this. Regardless of how skilled you are at drawing your weapon, you are going to lose. It may be only a minor loss, like being very shaken up and not sleeping well for a few days, or it may be a major loss, like becoming fertilizer, or (most likely) it may be somewhere in-between, but you always lose. Your life will not be the same even if you prevail.

Carrying a concealed firearm presents to a criminal that I am unarmed. Every study I’ve ever read, not most but every study, says that criminals will avoid an armed person or home when selecting a victim. That only makes sense, right? Robbers, rapists, or carjackers might be dumb and opportunistic, but they have the same instinctual sense of self preservation we all have. Hyenas don’t attack lions to steal the gazelle the lions have just killed. It’s all about risk management; are the potential gains (a tasty gazelle dinner) worth the risks (pain and damage the lion’s teeth will cause), and does the hyena really need to test the lion to figure out the answer? No, the hyena can see the lion’s teeth and knows to stay well clear.

Deterrent Value:
When I’m carrying concealed I feel like my ‘teeth’ are hidden, and thus of no real deterrent value. If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all. I recognize that there are some people who (think they) want to be victimized so they can whip out their concealed firearm and ‘surprise’ the mugger; that is, in my opinion, foolish immaturity. Concealed carry is good; it throws a wrench in the works for criminals who might see the teeming masses as a smorgasbord of financial gain. This deterrent effect is, nonetheless, indirect and often nil. At some point the thug will weigh the risks vs. the gains; is his current desperation for money/drugs/booze/gold grille greater than the gamble that one of those people might be carrying a gun? If he decides to play the odds, which helped along with surprise tip the scale in his favor, he will attack. Will his attack allow enough time for me to draw my concealed firearm to affect a defense? Maybe, but then again, maybe not.

Remember, I don’t want to be a victim and I don’t want to shoot anyone. So how do I realize both goals; or how do I make them inclusive? I can do that through open carry. By making it clear and obvious that I am armed, that I have teeth, I tip the risk scale to the point that the criminal’s gains are far outweighed by the risk. There is no ambiguity when the thug is doing his risk assessment, there’s something right there in plain sight that can quickly and painfully change or terminate his life. You may not think his life has much value, but as I mentioned before, he has the same sense of self preservation as any other living creature and to him it’s every bit as valuable as yours is to you. It would be foolish to ignore this indisputable fact when you develop your overall tactical strategy.

The Five Stages of Violent Crime http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html
I am a firm believer in this defense theology and urge anyone who carries a firearm for protection (and even those who do not) to follow the link and read it carefully. Please, for your and your family’s sake, read that. Drill down into the hyperlinks for better explanations; absorb as much information as you can. A violent crime does not begin at the point where one person with ill intent draws a weapon or attacks another.
Quote:
The Five Stages of Violent Crime:
Crime and violence are processes that take time to develop. The attack is not the first step, the preliminary triangle must be built. There are five distinct stages that are easily identified:
1) Intent
2) Interview
3) Positioning
4) Attack
5) Reaction

I do not believe the act begins after the BG has made his intentions known by drawing on you (attack); it began when he formed the intent. Well, there’s not a lot I can do personally to stop another’s intent, so I need to look a little farther along in the sequence and try to derail that train before it gets to the attack. For the sake of argument, let’s remove weapons from the equation for just a moment. A 5’2” unarmed attacker isn’t going to choose a 6’6” victim over a 5’1” victim, right? He’s going to attack the easier target. Now let’s come back to the reality of violent crime and add back the weapons. Concealed carry presumes it is better to wait until the opponent has drawn his knife or gun and then try to ‘fix’ the situation. It’s seems a bit foolish to promote the idea that it’s better to attempt to stop a violent crime in the fourth stage when you could instead prevent it in the second. A concealed weapon cannot deter an attack at the ‘interview’ stage; it’s completely ineffectual in that role. Open carry is the only method that provides a direct deterrent. Let’s say the bad-guy missed the openly carried pistol and holster during the interview stage, and has proceeded to the ‘positioning’ stage. Chances are pretty good he’ll see it at some point then, right? Then, let’s say the planets have all aligned just so and he, for whatever reason, has begun his attack despite your openly carried sidearm. At this point, the OCer is on level footing with the CCer, the attack has begun. Who has the advantage? Well, I’m going to say that with all things being equal (skill level and equipment) the OCer has a speed of draw advantage over the CCer.

First One To Be Shot:
There are some who criticize open carry and claim it will make you more of a target or ‘the first one shot’ when a robber walks into the 7-11, despite the absolute lack of credible evidence that this has ever happened. If the robber walks in and sees that you’re armed, his whole plan has encountered an unexpected variable. In bank robberies where he might expect to see an armed guard he will have already factored that possibility into his plan, but only for the armed guard, not for open or concealed carry citizens. No robber robs a bank without at least a rudimentary plan. Nevertheless, being present for a bank robbery is an extremely remote possibility for most of us regardless of our preferred method of handgun carry, so let’s go back in the 7-11. If the robber sees someone is armed he is forced to either significantly alter the plan or abort it outright. Robbing is an inherently apprehensive occupation, and one that doesn’t respond well to instant modifications. He is not prepared to commit murder when he only planned for larceny. He knows that a petty robbery will not garner the intense police manhunt a murder would. He doesn’t know if you’re an armed citizen or a police officer and isn’t going to take the time to figure it out. Either way, if someone in the 7-11 is unexpectedly armed, how many others might be similarly adorned and where might they be? Does this unexpectedly armed individual have a partner who is likewise armed nearby, someone who is watching right now? Self preservation compels him to abort the plan for one that is less risky. So we see that the logic matches the history; open carriers are not the first ones shot because it doesn’t make sense in any common street crime scenario that they would be. If your personal self protection plan emphasizes “Hollywood” style crimes over the more realistic street mugging, it might be best to stay home.

Surprise:
Probably the most common condemnation of open carry comes from the armchair tacticians who believe it’s better to have the element of surprise in a criminal encounter. Although this was touched on in the previous paragraph about deterrence, I’ll expand on it specifically here because there are some important truths you need to consider before you lean too heavily on this false support. Surprise as a defensive tactic is often based on unrealistic or ill-thought out scenarios, and seems to exist only in the minds of concealed carry firearms proponents. The circumstance where several street toughs surround and taunt you for a while before robbing you, like in some Charles Bronson movie, is not realistic; the mugger wants to get in and out as fast as possible. In most cases you will have only seconds to realize what’s happening, make a decision, and react. Imagine you’re walking along the sidewalk when two gangsta looking teenagers suddenly appear at the corner coming in the opposite direction. You have only seconds to react if their intent was to victimize you. Do you draw your concealed firearm now or wait until there’s an actual visible threat? If they are just on their way to church and you pull a gun on them, you are the criminal and you will likely forever lose your firearms rights for such a foolish action. If you don’t draw and they pull a knife or pistol when they’re just a couple steps away, your only options are draw (if you think you can) or comply. Imagine staring at the shiny blade of a knife being held by a very nervous and violent mugger, three inches from your or your wife’s throat and having to decide whether or not you have time to draw from concealment. The element of surprise may not do you any good; in fact the only surprising thing that might happen is that your concealed carry pistol gets taken along with your wallet. The thug will later get a good chuckle with his buddies about how you brought a gun to a knife fight. The simple truth is that while surprise is a monumentally superior tactical maneuver, it is exclusively an offensive action, not a defensive one. What many internet commandos call ‘defensive surprise’ is nothing more than damage control, a last ditch effort to fight your way back out of a dangerous situation. I am not aware of any army that teaches using surprise as a defense against attack. No squad of soldiers goes on patrol with their weapons hidden so that they can ‘surprise’ the enemy should they walk into an ambush.

It Will Get Stolen:
Another common criticism of open carry is that the firearm itself will be the target of theft, prompting a criminal to attack simply to get the gun from you. Like the previous example of being the first one shot in a robbery, above, this is despite the fact that there is no credible evidence it happens. It also blindly ignores the more obvious fact that anything you possess can make you the target of a crime, be it a car, a watch, or even a female companion (girlfriend, wife, or daughter). Crooks commonly steal for only one of two reasons; to get something you have that they want, or to get something that you have so they can sell it and buy something they want. I don’t claim it could never happen; just that it’s so remote a possibility that it doesn’t warrant drastic alterations to our self defense strategies. If you believe otherwise, leave your wife, children, watch, sunglasses, jewelry, and cell phone at home, hop into your Pinto wagon, and head out to do your thing. Very often, someone critical of open carry will cite some example of a uniformed police officer whose gun was taken by a violent criminal, and yes, this does indeed happen. The argument, however, breaks down when they assume the officer was targeted solely to steal his firearm. What is more likely is that the officer was targeted merely for being a police officer and the gun was stolen as a byproduct of the attack. More often, the officer’s gun is taken during the struggle to get the suspect into custody due to an entirely unrelated matter. However, let’s suppose, for argument, that a police officer really was attacked just to get his firearm. What actions did the police department take to prevent it from reoccurring? Did they demand that their officers carry concealed? No, of course not. You should, like the police, prioritize your defense strategy for the most likely threat first, and the least likely last.

It Scares People:
One other statement against open carry I hear is that it damages public perception of firearms owners, or that by carrying openly we are not being good ambassadors to the public. While there are some people who have a genuine fear of firearms, due either to some horrible past experience or anti-gun indoctrination, the majority of people are either indifferent to them or quite fascinated by them. I’ve never kept track of the dozens of fellow citizens I’ve encountered who have marveled at the idea of open carry, but I do know exactly how many have expressed displeasure at it; one. People are scared of many things for many reasons; however, pretending those things do not exist only perpetuates the fear. Someone who is disturbed by open carry is going to be every bit as disturbed by concealed carry. The only effective way to overcome a fear is to come to the intellectual realization that the phobia is based on emotion and not on fact. By being a firsthand witness that a firearm was carried responsibly and peaceably, and wasn’t being carried in the commission of a crime, one who was apprehensive about firearms discovers their fear is not fact based, but emotional. Thus, open carry can be a very effectual way of helping to overcome the emotionally based fear of the firearm. After all, you’d be much more likely to believe in ghosts if you saw one rather than if you listened to a ghost story around a campfire. In other words, we give significantly more credibility to the things we experience than we do to the things we hear. The bottom line is that this argument is made by people who don’t, cant, or haven’t carried openly; those of us who do so on a regular basis have an entirely different experience.

I’m Not Comfortable Carrying Openly:
This is really the only reasonable argument against open carry for an individual. We all have a comfort zone for any aspect of our lives and we prefer to stay within that comfort zone. We all agree that it’s better to be armed and never need the firearm than it is to need it and not have it. There is a point where concealing your firearm becomes so problematic, due to conditions like temperature or comfort, that some choose to either leave it behind or carry in such a way that it would be difficult or impossible to draw it quickly. If it takes me five or six seconds to draw my firearm from deep concealment and I had sufficient time before hand to actually do so, I would prefer to use that five or six seconds to avoid the entire encounter. I’m glad we have concealed carry laws in most of the states; it empowers and protects not only us but the general public through the offset deterrent effect. Some of us, however, choose the more direct deterrent effect of open carry.

Conclusion
No, open carry is not the be-all-end-all of self defense any more than concealed carry is. The purpose of this essay is not to convince you to carry a firearm openly, but to merely point out the reasoning I used to determine that it is often the best option for me. If you think otherwise, please feel free to write an essay of your own outlining the reasoning you used. I would suggest that you avoid the intellectual mistake of emphasizing rare or unlikely defense scenarios that many of us will never experience. I believe one should prioritize for the most likely threat, not the least likely threat. I don’t put Hollywood style bank robberies high on my threat list because I rarely go into a bank and those types of robberies are very rare themselves. I live in the most crime riddled city in the northwest; the most likely threat here is some young male with a knife or gun trying to carjack me or mug me on the street, in the park, or in a parking lot. With this knowledge I build my personal self protection plan based on that manner of attack. This may not suit you, especially if you live in Hollywood.

[BluemontGlock]

Awesome Read and a great post!

well thought out and salient points.

I really like, and identify with, his disposition of "not be the victim of a violent crime", while balancing that with an "overall goal of making it through my life without shooting anyone"

Amen Brother!!

Think i am going to clip on my Glock and go for a walk...

[scampbell3]

I was a CC carry only person for a longtime. When I learned about OC and that in fact OC was an option here in Delaware, I has skeptical of OC in general. After joining Delaware Open Carry (deloc.org) and learned more about it, and even OC on occasion, I "saw the light" so to say. When I read the above article it thoroughly changes my view on the difference between exercising a right and being allowed to have a regulated privileged (CC). While OC may not be for everyone, I have had nothing but positive encounters with all types of people, including law enforcement. I OC daily now, and have OC'ed in PA, DE, and VA. Every encounter,good or bad, is a chance to educate people about true freedom and liberty that we sometimes take for granted in our society today.

Carry on....

Chip

[allingeneral]

Thank you for sharing this scampbell. An excellent read, indeed.

[Bobtail1911]

I OC when walking the dog.
The other day I "forgot" I was open carrying and walked into a bank.
I did my transaction and left. Only after did it hit me. A patron sitting outside the bank gave me a weird look on my way in... I wonder if they called 911.

[gfost1]

Howdy, Chip,

An excellent counter argument to some of those coming from the adherents of concealed carry. Thanks for reposting it here, and for the links.

Regards,

George

[Derby]

I OC when walking the dog.
The other day I "forgot" I was open carrying and walked into a bank.
I did my transaction and left. Only after did it hit me. A patron sitting outside the bank gave me a weird look on my way in... I wonder if they called 911.

Sorry to be ignorant I thought guns were not allowed in any bank, unless you were a LEO am I mistaken?

[allingeneral]

You are mistaken. The only time a firearm isn't allowed in a bank is when the bank is posted as such, being private property and all. You should read through some more of the Virginia Code references that are cited in the following post.

http://vagunforum.net/virginia-laws/cod ... ws-t2.html

[Derby]

Yeah I have looked over it, Finals are next week so I have been studying as well.

I am going to though for sure dont want to get in trouble for carrying somewhere not aloud!!

In my previous post its to not yo it was a mis-spell dont know how to edit it

[alby]

I OC when walking the dog.
The other day I "forgot" I was open carrying and walked into a bank.
I did my transaction and left. Only after did it hit me. A patron sitting outside the bank gave me a weird look on my way in... I wonder if they called 911.

Sorry to be ignorant I thought guns were not allowed in any bank, unless you were a LEO am I mistaken?

Depends on the Bank. Just like any other business, some have posted signs saying no guns.
But many have nothing.

[zephyp]

Living here in NOVA presents interesting challenges for OC. As many of you know other than California its probably the liberal capitol of the US, especially right now. I CC almost exclusively here for the simple reason that I do not want to make a scene. Its not enough that most of the residents are ignorant but also LE. It only takes one person to either yell "he's got a gun" or quietly call the police while they go the other way. I realize some of you might relish the thought of "correcting" a LEO but up here you have to deal with the unexpected. I dont like the idea of being put face down on the pavement while someone who doesnt know the law treats me like a criminal. Yes I know I have recourse, but having recourse after an incident is not always desirable. When the squad cars show up and the guys in blue draw behind open car doors you aren't in the best of positions (who knows what they were told during the 911 call). Also, who knows what someone nearby might say or do when they show up. I am fully aware of the law, but up here I consider it a risk at times to OC depending on the venue. Call me paranoid but I do not desire confrontation. I also do not relish the thought of having my rights violated (yes I know its my right to OC). Getting arrested for any reason is no fun even if you know you are in the right. Having said all that, I have no problem whatsoever OCing once I leave the confines of NOVA.

[hak]

i CC for my protection but mainly for my kid's protection. ironically enough, that's also why i don't OC.

i can't argue with the OP's logic, but in Fairfax, the OC is so polarizing (we've had people ask at birthday parties we've hosted as they're dropping off their kids "you don't own any guns, right?") i don't want my OC to disadvantage them or put them in an awkward social situation based on the views of easily 50% of our neighborts and their classmates parents, so i CC.

[scampbell3]

i CC for my protection but mainly for my kid's protection. ironically enough, that's also why i don't OC.

i can't argue with the OP's logic, but in Fairfax, the OC is so polarizing (we've had people ask at birthday parties we've hosted as they're dropping off their kids "you don't own any guns, right?") i don't want my OC to disadvantage them or put them in an awkward social situation based on the views of easily 50% of our neighborts and their classmates parents, so i CC.

I can understand your dilemma. Where I live here in Delaware, I am 7 miles from Maryland, and a short 1.5 hour drive from NJ. During the summer months, to add insult to injury, I live near the beach areas of Rehobeth/Lewes/Dewey so we are over-run with tourists from MD,NJ,PA,CT,NY, Canada etc....not exactly people that are pro-OC. (Not to mention Sarah, Jim Brady also live down here in Lewes, DE). But Myself and many others OC daily, everywhere and anywhere that is not prohibited by law or know to be disallowed by property owners.

One of the largest obstacles that is faced by the firearms community is not gun control.....yes, I said it is not gun control. It is fear. The gun control advocates power is rooted in perpetuating a misplaced fear of firearms. We all know the mantra that is spewed by these organization. "guns kill people" "gun cause crime" I could go on, but we know the song and dance too well. The mainstream media and entertainment has fostered this belief that an inanimate object can run a muck causing chaos and destruction. They have been successful in instilling this fear into our culture. Those who have been taught the lessons of care and respect and the proper place and uses of firearms know this fear to be false.

I certainly respect one's choice to carry as they see fit, and for some OC is not a good fit. It does not matter to me if one OC or CC, just carry and carry daily. The reason I, and many other like me OC daily has several different purposes. One of those reasons is to dispel the fear people have of firearms. This is to show people that a man carry a gun, and eating dinner with his family, or shopping at the store, or walking and playing with his kids in the park is not evil. Violence and crime are not about to erupt in a blaze of gunfire and blood running down the side walk. One of the comments in the article I posted made it clear that those who are afraid of an openly carried firearm, will be just as scared if they knew it was concealed. However, CC allows for them to not face this irrational fear. If we want to counter the anti-gun movement, we also need to counter the fear that is at the root of it. How can we change a persons perception about firearms if we hide them. Is carrying a firearm something to be ashamed of, absolutely not. So if it not shame, it must be fear. Fear of someone's reaction to what we have chosen to do in order to ensure the protection of ourselves and of those we love. I have had many encounters with people while OC'ing, most of those encounters are good, there have been times where encounters have been less then stellar, but each encounter is a chance to change someone's perception about firearms, and lawful carry. My only regret is that I did not learn about OC sooner. All the years I spent trying to hide my guns, are years lost where I could have been pro-active in dispelling these irrational fears about firearms.

Again, OC may not be for everyone, but then ask yourself, how can we change the public perception of firearms, guns owners, and lawful carry if we stay quite and hide them?

Carry on...

Chip

[alby]

i CC for my protection but mainly for my kid's protection. ironically enough, that's also why i don't OC.

i can't argue with the OP's logic, but in Fairfax, the OC is so polarizing (we've had people ask at birthday parties we've hosted as they're dropping off their kids "you don't own any guns, right?") i don't want my OC to disadvantage them or put them in an awkward social situation based on the views of easily 50% of our neighborts and their classmates parents, so i CC.

There is no cure for mindsets. The only thing that will change is if/when more people OC in
Northern Virginia and the sight of armed citizens becomes more socially acceptable. But given that
NoVA is an economic hub that draws in people from all over the nation, all with different backgrounds
and social upbringings, the tide isn't likely to turn any time soon.

But honestly, most people will initial think your are a Law Enforcement Officer unless you give them
reason to believe otherwise. How you dress when you OC will say a lot about their initial assumptions.
Its very hard for anybody to think negatively about somebody with a gun who is dressed in Business
Casual attire.

[scampbell3]

i CC for my protection but mainly for my kid's protection. ironically enough, that's also why i don't OC.

i can't argue with the OP's logic, but in Fairfax, the OC is so polarizing (we've had people ask at birthday parties we've hosted as they're dropping off their kids "you don't own any guns, right?") i don't want my OC to disadvantage them or put them in an awkward social situation based on the views of easily 50% of our neighborts and their classmates parents, so i CC.

There is no cure for mindsets. The only thing that will change is if/when more people OC in
Northern Virginia and the sight of armed citizens becomes more socially acceptable. But given that
NoVA is an economic hub that draws in people from all over the nation, all with different backgrounds
and social upbringings, the tide isn't likely to turn any time soon.

But honestly, most people will initial think your are a Law Enforcement Officer unless you give them
reason to believe otherwise. How you dress when you OC will say a lot about their initial assumptions.
Its very hard for anybody to think negatively about somebody with a gun who is dressed in Business
Casual attire.

This is all the more reason for those who wish the tide to change to do something about it. While not everyone has the desire to be an advocate, making assumptions on why we should not OC due to location, or types of people etc is a defeatist mindset, the battle is lost before it is fought. I applaud all those who are taking a stand and exercising your rights to the fullest in NoVa. Will the advocacy of OC in NoVa lead to possible problems and inconveniences for the OC'er....maybe, but then again, history has shown that fighting for establishing or maintaining a right is not a smooth paved road.

Carry on....

Chip
OCing daily, everywhere and anywhere (unless prohibited by law)

[Vahunter]

Out here in the sticks I can count on one hand the number of people I see OC'in. People here don't give guns a second thought when they see them. My wife did get quized at the grocery store on how hard it was to get a permit.

[CCFan]

Good information....I'm not going to re-post it all, but in "The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry", Ayoob talks about the pros and cons of open vs. concealed carry...

Based on some of the ideas in the book, I don't see open carrying being any more advantageous than properly concealed carrying... wearing carefully selected concealment clothing to give you proper access to your firearm, practicing drawing from your holster, and situation awareness - it *all* goes into the equation. Just open carrying doesn't mean you're going to be any more prepared because you wear your firearm openly. I understand the arguments made, I just don't fully agree - such as the statement about the firearm being a target of theft, "despite the fact that there is no credible evidence it happens" - Massad points out several cases where it has happened, and also points out the fact that anything else stolen (such as jewelry, electronics, etc) are worth less than face value, while your stolen firearm on the black market just doubled in price....

Massad actually states in his book that he knows several people who were won over to the "firearms friendly" crowd when they learned that someone in their lives, whom they respected, carried concealed - but he didn't know anyone who saw someone open carrying and decided to change their mindset to the pro-firearms side. That may have changed by now, but it's worth remembering that when you OC, you represent a lot of folks. It is a personal choice, and I think the more info we get, the better off we all are.

It's hard to say whether we'll ever get back to the days of old, but it's good to see that more folks ARE OC'ing... maybe one day it won't be so taboo in so many places.

[zephyp]

When I see a few people OCing in downtown Alexandria and Springfield I'll change my mind. In the meantime I'll stick to CC unless I leave the area. Even a little farther out in places like Sperryville you get people to stop and stare. There are just too many anti's and liberals up here.

[Derby]

When I see a few people OCing in downtown Alexandria and Springfield I'll change my mind. In the meantime I'll stick to CC unless I leave the area. Even a little farther out in places like Sperryville you get people to stop and stare. There are just too many anti's and liberals up here.

I have lived in Alexandria for.... 6 months maybe?

I dont think I have ever seen some one OC'ing here lol

[allingeneral]

So, pick a place for us to meet in Alexandria for an OC dinner! Maybe we can all go for a walk in the park afterward!