Educate me on ARs, please

[GeneFrenkle]

I'm not really a black rifle kinda guy - they all look alike to me, but I think I'm being swooned by the GodFather's Knight's SR-15 (http://vagunforum.net/rifles/knights-t11244.html). I've done a little reading on them from various sources (to include here), but in general I see things like "What's the best AR", "What do you think about X", or "... Y is better because the castle nut is staked". In general, I'm inclined to believe that rifles in a particular cost category are generally equivalent due to manufacturing processes, etc. This is all nice information. I'm interested in learning about how to critically compare different rifles - what are the things to critically look for, why would one feature be "better" than another, what criteria can one use to determine what best suits one's needs, and does this criteria change when examining new vs used rifles? I guess I'm asking what one looks for in an AR (new as well as used), why one would look for them, how significant are these features, and how do they really compare between cost categories? (whew!)

If this is a dumb post, out of place, or too problematic, mods please delete.

[tursiops]

+1
Looking forward to reading the responses.

[zombiekiller57]

Some of the bigger differences are the quality of the materials and workmanship, ie some "Military Style Assault Rifles" are hand worked by gunsmiths where others are milled/forged and put together. Barrels are sometimes different as well. You can get light weight or heavy barrels, Chrome lined or not lined. But for the most part most entry level AR's from any manufacturer are going to be about the same, other than the companies reputation of course.

[ShotgunBlast]

[MattS]

Not sure if direct links to other sites are OK here, so I won't post directly to the source, but AR15.com has seemingly everything under the sun explained in a FAQ on their board. I've been using it quite a bit as I apparently need to get up to speed quicker than planned on what everything means.

[Rich]

Just my opinion. But unless you get into some high end AR's there just isnt that much difference in them. What you want as far a features is entirely up to you. There are some pretty good books and magazines on the sugject.

[downzero]

That would be a very tall order to fill in the context of a forum, there is so much information on these guns.I would suggest doing some research on the web. Put together a list of manufacturers and models and read the reviews on them. The reviews from recognized gun magzines who regularly test these products is a good source. You might also consider contacting a firearms training facility that offers tactical rifle training and ask them which ones hold up and which ones don't when their run hard. They see all makes and models come thru their classes and they know what breaks and what doesn't. Good luck.

[Jakeiscrazy]

Alright I'll cover a few terms off the top of my head.

Castle nut staking:The castle nut is a threaded ring that keeps the buffer tub(stock tube) from rotation. Staking it is when you hit the castle nut in stuck a way to make sure it doesn't come off and loosen up.

Here is a pic:


The gas key on a bolt carrier can also be staked:


Other things to consider are Magnetic Particle Inspection(MPI) which is a process to ensure that the metal is sound and not flawed.

Also most barrels are commonly either chrome plated or melinite lined(as on the M&Ps by S&W) these coating mostly serve to prevent rust and improve barrel life. If they are just bare I would avoid them.

Also the lowers(the registered part of the gun) can be made out of a variety of types of aluminum. These are generally called series. Some of them and harder than others and considered tougher than others. Whether the toughness is needed is the question.

Now there are a lot of AR systems out that are using piston systems instead of direct impingement(DI). I won't even begin to get into which one is better but

the piston lovers will tell you:
DI is a failed system because it puts all the gases back in the receiver. Psiton systems keep the gas upfront and are cleaner in the receiver. They'll tell you that the piston system is much tougher.

The DI guys will tell you:
DI has worked and still does that why the military uses it. Plenty of people run thousand of rounds thru the DI guns without issues. More importantly and perhaps the strongest point. DI is a very lightweight system and it allows for a lower profile forend. Low profile forends are trendy right now because they're light and they allow you to shoot in the Isosceles stance that is also trendy.


If you have specif question feel free to post here or message me and we'll do our best.

[RWBlue01]

I have a couple. I have built my own. I don't think I am an expert, but I will try to help.

Right now is probably not the best time to be starting this. It is all messed up. Everywhere I would buy parts from is back ordered. If there is no legislation, I would expect things to get back to normal around June.

AR-15.com people are not nice to newbies and there are too many people who think they know what they are doing, but don't.

M4 is better place to start.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642

There there is the chart.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key ... utput=html

But the real question is, what do you want to do with the gun in the end. If you are looking for a very light weight the spec will be different than the guy wanting a bench rest gun.

The biggest differences between the best rifles and the middle will probably not show up until you are several thousand rounds in and can be corrected by someone with minimal skills and tools (i.e. me), but if you want to shoot lots and you want the best, you are better off buying a complete gun from the best.

OR lets put it a different way. The AR-15 is a guys barbie doll. If you can get a frame, it can be dressed and redressed multiple ways. The key is to get a frame to get you started.

[RWBlue01]

A couple more things.

1. I have a personal issue with Knight. I don't buy their stuff. Long story, but lets just say they don't have customer service and have been known to lie.

2. Pmags are suppose to be the best mags. I have some at my other location. I have not been able to try them. They may not work in all receivers like the Aug NATO or new Tavor or ..... The old aluminium mags should work, BUT...If you ding them you can kill them. So far mine have been good to me. I would like to try some Steel mags, but I really don't need them.

3. Larue makes the best scope mounts. Don't even try to argue with me. It is a known fact. They also make great spices.

4. Buying used. It is hard to tell if a gun has been run hard and put away wet or just carry around. My home built is probably better than many commercial guns, but it really doesn't look like it. On the other hand, I have heard some horror stories about home built guns that didn't function well for their new owners.

[GeneFrenkle]

Thanks for the responses. I'm not planning on acquiring anything in the mid-term. I agree the market is way too wonky.

This is pretty good information and it'll take a while to go through the ar15 stuff (I tend to stay out of that site as it seemed to be more brand bashing than criteria based) as well as nutnfancy's stuff (which tends to be long, imo)

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[MattS]

The market is out of control. I've been following auctions on GunBroker for a few models I'd be interested in, and two days ago a few weren't going past $1100 (and therefore not hitting reserve) and had me thinking the frenzy had died a bit. Yesterday everything was $1600 and the reserves and buy it now prices are going up. So who knows. Of course, even if you bought one, you may have to give up an appendage for a few 30 round mags. Never mind ammo to actually get to try your new expensive rifle.

Unfortunately you have two choices. 1) Play the game, pay the price, get a rifle. 2) Hope the legislation doesn't screw things up too badly and maybe you can get one down the road. Next week could be big. The recommendations are supposed to be made, and it could either make the market hotter or possibly deflate the balloon.

[gunderwood]

I will second most of the advice given here. That M4carbine link/spreadsheet is a goldmine. It does depend on what you want to use the rifle for though. Mine pull double duty as home defense rifles. All of the milspec features, such as staking, MPI, etc. are designed to minimize the risk of any problems. If you rifle is a range toy, you can easily fix most potential problems. However, if it is a gun you are going to rely on to work right NOW and when you need it the most, I recommend you do not skimp on any of the milspec features. On the other hand, something is almost always better than nothing.

The AR15 platform is wonderful for a self-defense rifle, for the most part but nothings perfect. It's light, ergonomically correct, rapidly adjustable for different sized shooters, low recoil, capable of carrying enough ammo in one mag for most home defense situations, quick and easy to reload unlike some other options, and is more effective than a handgun with the right ammo. However, it is ugly or cool looking depending on your point of view, more expensive than other options, still isn't shooting a deer legal caliber in VA (and thus not a really great single shot threat stopper even with the best ammo; there are other chamberings though which are a bit better, but bring your life's savings if you don't reload), can easily double the price of the gun with accessories, still noisy as all suppressed and now triple the price (most semis are due to trapped gases blowing back through the action and straight to the shooters ear), not the most pleasant design to clean and gets dirty quickly, and likes to be run very wet (is this a good or bad things and what am I talking about again?).

Despite all of that, she's a solid 8 and has your back come hell or high water...and since she doesn't weigh as much as a tank, she won't drown you in that high water. I wouldn’t trade her for anything Russian unless she was 6' tall, blonde and making other 10s look bad...but that's just me.

[M1A4ME]

To me, the neatest things about AR15's are:

1. You can build one yourself - with the parts you want with really only one special tool - either the standard barrel wrench or a special (depends on the manufacturer of the free float tube) wrench designed to work with your free float tube/barrel nut. I've built several over the last few years. I start out in the floor of the living room with my little "gun" toolbox and a towel for the parts, and put the lower receiver together while fighting the cat away from the small parts she is so curious about.

2. They can be pretty darn accurate if everthing goes together right and you reload .223 ammo.

3. You can run a .22 conversion kit in them and shoot/plink/practice very cheaply compared to .223 ammo. Again, some guns like different brands of .22 rimfire ammo so try several before you throw your hands up, sell your .22 conversion kit and begin a life of badmouthing .22 conversion kits for AR15's.

A single AR15 isn't ver versatile. But you can build a 16" lightweight barreled carbine that is both light and accurate. And you can build a 24" bull barreled varmint rifle that is both heavy and accurate. Or anything in between. The flat top upper receivers allow you to mount an uncountable number of mounts/scopes/red dot optics on the rifle - depending on your budget and your needs for the purpose that rifle will see in your hands.

I like them. I've found something I like better - but again, it is not as versatile as the numerous versions/variants of AR15's, it is not as cheap, it is not are easily/cheaply repairable (I've not yet broken an AR15 either, but I have spare parts for mine). It has other advantages that made it worth it to me and I think I'll be very happy with it.

My ideal AR15 is the last one I built. A 16" lightweight barrel (chome line RRA) with a midlength gas system. A free floate tube (keeps the sling or anything I rest the free float tube on from affecting that skinny barrel). A flat top receiver for my optic of choice (I'm partial to those old British SUIT scopes). It is light, accurate and works great with factory ammo. I'm still messing with it on the reload side - it doesn't like the standard IMR4198/62 or 55 grain bullet recipe all my other AR15's like just fine.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do, buy, build, buy partially completed and finish the build yourself. Its fun and you can make the rifle exactly what you want it to be.

[vonClausewitz]

I know you asked about AR's...but...

If 556 is your caliber of choice, and you already own AR mags (of any brand)...may I suggest you look at a SIG556...

Now, someone will tell me about issues they have had, and I agree that older models came with some quality control issues...they have been fixed, and the latest version of the SIG556 is IMHO the finest weapon I have ever handled in the .556 family...

It is gas piston versus Direct Impingement...

Mr. Stoner's design (DI) is like the land-line phone...it works, very well, but is old technology

The SIG 556 with a gas piston is like a smart phone...modern, solid, and very user friendly...

You can stick with the land-line if you want...I've switched to the smart phone...

[RWBlue01]

I know you asked about AR's...but...

If 556 is your caliber of choice, and you already own AR mags (of any brand)...may I suggest you look at a SIG556...

My issue with the Sig556 is not any issue. As I understand it they have some minor teething issues, but now the gun runs fine.

My issue with the Sig is like any other rifle in 5.56 which is not an AR. The other parts are just not on the market and probably never will be. This is like the difference between a Ruger 10/22 and any other 22lr rifle. All the parts are available for the Ruger to be changed into whatever you want. And no matter how good my Remington Speedmaster is, I do not find any aftermarket parts for it.

If you are looking for something different from a AR, I am on a group buy for a Tavor.

[gunderwood]

It is gas piston versus Direct Impingement...

Mr. Stoner's design (DI) is like the land-line phone...it works, very well, but is old technology

The SIG 556 with a gas piston is like a smart phone...modern, solid, and very user friendly...

You can stick with the land-line if you want...I've switched to the smart phone...

You do realize that DI is decades newer technology than pistons right?

M1 Garand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand

Garand's original design for the M1 used a complicated gas system involving a special muzzle extension gas trap, later dropped in favor of a simpler drilled gas port. Because most of the older rifles were retrofitted, pre-1939 gas-trap M1s are very rare today and are prized collector's items.[28] In both systems, expanding gases from a fired cartridge are diverted into the gas cylinder. Here, the gases met a long-stroke piston attached to the operating rod. The operating rod was therefore pushed rearward by the force of this high-pressure gas. Then, the operating rod engaged a rotating bolt inside the receiver. The bolt was attached to the receiver via two locking lugs, which rotated, unlocked, and initiated the ejection of the spent cartridge and the reloading cycle when the rifle was discharged. The operating rod (and subsequently the bolt) then returned to its original position.

[GeneFrenkle]

Is carrier tilt still an issue on the piston ARs or have they been worked out?

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[gunderwood]

Is carrier tilt still an issue on the piston ARs or have they been worked out?

It can not be worked out without redesigning the bolt/carrier and/or upper. Barrett went through the trouble with the REC7. At that point it's not really and AR15 any more, but some proprietary rifle. The cam pin is another area of concern, which is why POF came out with that roller cam idea. Sort of works from what I hear, but the basic problem is that the AR15 bolt/carrier was never designed to operate with a rod hitting it off center and the expanding gas in the AR15s carrier/bolt (forms a piston so technically the original AR15 was a piston design, but just a slick integrated one) significantly reduces the unlocking forces. Thus, the cam pin timing issues and the habit of shearing locking lugs off.

IMHO, minor tweaks and enhancements are expected over the lifespan of the design, but changing how it fundamentally operates isn't a good idea unless you re-design the whole platform. Very few manufacturers have bothered to do that.

[M1A4ME]

The 556, if like my 556R (the gun I was talking about without naming) doesn't have an AR15 bolt/carrier. It has a rotating bolt. I've been told its similar to a Benelli but I don't have a Benelli so I can't say for sure.

I won't be buying any AR15's for me. If I buy another 5.56X45 rifle some day it'll be a SIG 556.

But, as mentioned, you can't just get on the internet, or go to a gun show, and buy parts for them, replacement or customizing parts like you can the AR15's.