Asked to leave Spotsylvania Towne Centre

[allingeneral]

Email from me to the Spotsy Mall after Mall Security asked me to leave because I was OC. The sergeant of the security detail went to far as to ask me why I need to carry that thing - he's security and doesn't even carry a gun - or the pepper spray that he's supposed to be carrying. I thought they were wrong to ask me to leave based on the mall policy posted at the doors. Apparently, their policy doesn't match their written policy. I've OC'd there many times in the past and never got hassled.

Here's my email to them and their response:

Hello,

I was asked to leave the mall yesterday because I was carrying a handgun for
personal protection. I told the sergeant that since I was legally carrying
my sidearm, that I was within the rules posted on the property. He
indicated that if I was carrying concealed, that I could have stayed, but
since I had my shirt tucked in (I was still in my work clothes) and since my
firearm could be seen, that I was not allowed to stay.

The entire conversation was very pleasant and cordial, but I would have
liked to have finished school shopping for my 4 children instead of being
told to leave.

The rules posted at the entrance indicate "No weapons except in accordance
with state and federal law" (or something to that effect). I was in
accordance with state and federal law and I kindly attempted to explain that
to the sergeant, but he wasn't going to budge, so I took my family and left
the property.

Can someone please take a few moments to train your security force to
understand the rules posted at the entrance?

Thank you for your time. I look forward to your response.

Rick

Strangely, their response below is almost verbatim the words coming out of the security guy's mouth about "The mall is private property and we don't allow visible carrying".

As you may or may not be aware Spotsylvania Towne Centre is private property and a private land owner has the ability to set the policies which people must abide by while on the property. The guide lines we use are for people with concealed weapons permits which require that the weapon be concealed not visible to the public. The carrying of the weapon in the open would be a violation of the permit to carry. In your case you had the ability to take the weapon to your car and continue to shop, but chose differently.

Although we greatly appreciate your business and would like you to continue to shop with us, we will keep our policy in place on weapons in sight of the public. The only individual allowed to carry openly on the property are Officers of the Law while in the performance of their duty.

Thank you for expressing your concerns.

Mark L. Gentry
Property Manager
Spotsylvania Towne Centre
Fredericksburg, VA 22407

Phone (540) 786-6660
Fax (540) 786-9598
Web site www.spotsylvaniamall.com
E-mail propertymanager@spotsylvaniamall.com

So, why does their signage indicate that "No weapons are allowed except as allowed under state and federal law" if they aren't going to follow state and federal law?

[allingeneral]

My response back to them:

I am very well aware of private property owners’ rights.

The signs posted at your doors do not align with your ruling in this email. Please allow me to explain:

Your signs say something like the following:
No weapons allowed except as allowed by state and federal law

State and federal law allow that anyone who can legally own a firearm may carry it about their person in a visible manner. The firearm may only be concealed if the person has a Concealed Handgun Permit (CHP). One is no required to possess a CHP if the firearm is being carried in the open.

The following statement from your email below is blatantly wrong:
The carrying of the weapon in the open would be a violation of the permit to carry.

The Open Carrying of a firearm is NOT a violation in any way, shape or form. I possess a CHP which allows me to carry in any manner I choose (Openly or Concealed). If I did not have a CHP, I would only be able to legally carry in the open. Therefore, anyone who does not possess a CHP, but may legally own a firearm and wishes to carry said firearm for personal protection is being restricted by your verbal policy, but not by your written policy.

Please take a moment to reconsider the enforcement of your policies and allow any legally carried firearms on your property as your rules currently are written.

[meak99]

The carrying of the weapon in the open would be a violation of the permit to carry.

Yeah... WTF? Apparently, someone thinks they know the laws, but does not. I'm sure you'll keep us posted!

[SHMIV]

Well, considering that the email address for the property management was posted above, I figured that I would give Mr. Gentry my reason for not doing business with his mall.

This is what I wrote. Perhaps others could send a similar email?

Mr. Gentry,

It has come to my attention that your security team has recently asked a mall patron to leave the premises because he was legally carrying a visible firearm.

When I take into consideration that most random shootings occur in "gun-free" zones, and I also take into consideration your un-armed security team, I conclude that you run a potentially dangerous place in which to do business, and therefore, I will not be doing any business at your facility.

I am aware that you have no problem with a legally concealed firearm, which is commendable, however, since a concealed firearm is, by it's very nature, not visible, it in no way can act as a deterent to those who wish to cause harm.

Regards,

S. H. M*********, IV

[Tweaker]

will send.

Logic fail

enforcement of written rules fail

knee jerk powers activated

------------------------
Are your posted rules regarding firearms that which you enforce or not? Prohibiting the patronage of someone who is following both all of your posted rules as well as ALL STATE LAWS is both poor behavior and inconsistent with logic.


I will not be continuing to spend money at your mall until at which point you attempt to resolve the logical corner you have painted yourself into.


Captain Tweaker


father of 3 and spender or $80,000 a year.

[Kreutz]

They need to change their sign to reflect their actual policy of banning OC, which they are free to do. You were in the right as you were complying with the law, their sign is the problem.

[allingeneral]

Yes, their sign is the problem. However, I don't want them to feel like they should correct the sign to make their policy more restrictive. They need to see that their sign is worded perfectly. It's just their understanding of their own policy that is lacking.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[SHMIV]

Kinda makes you wonder if the mall isn't under new management, considering that they have just now said something to you.

[Jakeiscrazy]

I get the feeling the mall near me, "Chesterfield Town Center", is the same way. There are a lot of "security" guards on segways just rolling around like they have real authority. I think one noticed my knife clipped to my pocket and started to whisper something to his buddy but they didn't end up saying anything to me. I don't know how they handle OCers but I'll find out when I start OCing.

[Diomed]

Perhaps the management company is part of a multi-state outfit that just boilerplated their carry policy across all their properties. It almost sounds like they're reading Florida or Texas law, where open carry is indeed illegal.

[Reverenddel]

Malls in general have been very Gun Owner Unfriendly.

No matter the amount of e-mails, letters, or actions we do (boycotts, carrying signs, etc) Their douchery knows no bounds, and I will continue to shop where I'm not considered a pariah, but the thugs who walk around with their britches down to their knees, and underwear exposed are asked to "Pull'em up, or get out."

You know? A mall that CATERS to GUN OWNERS would be something to behold! AND would draw businesses, and patrons from miles around!

[allingeneral]

Malls in general have been very Gun Owner Unfriendly.

No matter the amount of e-mails, letters, or actions we do (boycotts, carrying signs, etc) Their douchery knows no bounds, and I will continue to shop where I'm not considered a pariah, but the thugs who walk around with their britches down to their knees, and underwear exposed are asked to "Pull'em up, or get out."

You know? A mall that CATERS to GUN OWNERS would be something to behold! AND would draw businesses, and patrons from miles around!

A couple of indoor gun ranges and some good "anchor" stores like Dick's and Bass Pro

One could almost call that a social experiment! I wonder how normal "mall-ish" places like jewelry stores, clothing stores, etc would fare in a place like that.

[meangene]

I wish VA would adopt a requirement similar to the Texas 30.06 law. Any sign prohibiting a gun has to specifically worded, in english and spanish, and the letters have to be 1" high. Any other sign doesn't apply to someone with a CHL.

[SHMIV]

Spanish? I'm tired of signs in Spanish. We speak English here, and our signage should reflect that. If someone breaks a law, rule, ordinance, etc. because of their failure to learn the spoken language, that's on them.

As to the height of the lettering, that is fairly meaningless, too. I was at a gas station, once, that had the entire wall of their building devoted to a sign instructing patrons to NOT use the door, but go to the window to pay for gas. The height of the lettering was a foot and a half, if not taller. Plus, there was a giant arrow that pointed to the window. Only about 2 people a day actually read the sign, every one else went to the door first. Some actually ignored the sign that was taped to the door (sign in door said the same thing), and would beat on the door. The average person, it would seem, is oblivious to signage.

Not that I am opposed to signage, mind you. Signage is a great tool for covering your hind quarters.

[Sensai]

I agree that the problem is a disconnect between the signage/written policy and enforced policy. I think that Mr. Gentry believes that he is protecting his customers from being scared by the sight of firearms. The underlying problem is that he isn't aware that the majority of people are comfortable around guns in the right hands.

[VirginiaXD]

I hate it when people don't know the rules but enforce them like they wrote every one.

[Reverenddel]

By the way, Mall Security doesn't appreciate being called "Blarts" (after the movie "Paul Blart: Mall cop")...

Just saying...

[cawmalone]

Did they reply to your latest email?

[allingeneral]

Did they reply to your latest email?

Negative.

[Skeptic]

Wow, too bad I wont be shopping there this weekend. I was heading up to avail myself of the Wegmans (which may or may not be anti but has some items I cant find elsewhere) and had some stuff to get, thought the mall might be a good place to go. guess not, since it seems they have a track record of arbitrarily changing their gun policy and have no understanding of the local laws.