How NOT to Teach A CCW Course!

Jakeiscrazy · Post by **Jakeiscrazy** » Sun, 31 Jul 2011 23:13:08

This video is showing clips of another youtuber's CCW class he recently attended. Watch as the instructor muzzles his students and even has his student muzzle him. Then to top it off even has ammunition on his side.

pratt · Post by **pratt** » Mon, 01 Aug 2011 06:52:59

That's shocking. He must know better. It shows that you can't ever take for granted that someone understands and practices gun safety--even if they're an NRA instructor. I wouldn't want to have him in the lane next to me at the range.

meak99 · Post by **meak99** » Mon, 01 Aug 2011 07:32:26

Insane. I wouldn't be comfortable with that at all.

Post by **allingeneral** » Mon, 01 Aug 2011 08:31:34

If he's going to run his course that way, he should be using a plastic training firearm, not a real one.

I'd like to hear what other NRA instructors think about this guy.

newdovo · Post by **newdovo** » Mon, 01 Aug 2011 08:53:13

Even when watching stuff like this on video, I find myself ducking out of the way. I did it watching this one, too. I don't want to get comfortable with having a gun pointed at me.
Willful negligence is what is portrayed in this video. I was hoping to see all of his students dive for cover!

meangene · Post by **meangene** » Mon, 01 Aug 2011 10:44:15

It's really sad that an "instructor" would be so clueless. Time to send him back through training!

Chasbo00 · Post by **Chasbo00** » Mon, 01 Aug 2011 11:09:58

Unfortunately, there are a lot of incompetents out there claiming to be handgun instructors, and the NRA's certification for a pistol instructor is far too easy to obtain if you have about $350. The standards (both demonstrated teaching ability and shooting performance) are way too low for a valid certification. Despite this, the instructor in the video violated much of what the NRA teaches plus several basic gun safety rules - he should lose his certification and his ability to teach where he does. I suspect he will.

ProShooter · Post by **ProShooter** » Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:37:43

All I can say is "oh my!". I'm pretty speechless.

I check my classroom guns several times before students arrive and then I show them (the students) again that all guns are unloaded. Even with that, I wouldn't point a gun at someone. There are times in class where I may demo something with a real gun but that gun is ALWAYS pointed away from students in a safe direction. Sometimes I have to demo something in the students direction to make a point but then I always use my orange plastic training gun (like a Ring's blue gun).

The fact that this instructor has a loaded mag on his side is....mind boggling.

Jakeiscrazy · Post by **Jakeiscrazy** » Mon, 01 Aug 2011 22:19:16

Not to mention whats a blue gun or two really cost? Like next to nothing, no excuse for this.

Tweaker · Post by **Tweaker** » Tue, 02 Aug 2011 08:30:19

I have seen instructors use demonstrably unfireable guns and that works but still goes against your better instincts.

lagmonkey · Post by **lagmonkey** » Tue, 02 Aug 2011 08:49:08

God could descend from heaven, hand me a firearm, declare in a loud booming voice that it is clear and I would still check to make sure there was no round in the chamber. If I was in this class I would have pulled this gentleman aside the moment he started flagging students with his pistol, explained that I found his disregard for basic firearms safety horrific, and then hit the bricks.

Aroooo · Post by **Aroooo** » Tue, 02 Aug 2011 10:34:16

Chasbo00 wrote:Unfortunately, there are a lot of incompetents out there claiming to be handgun instructors, and the NRA's certification for a pistol instructor is far too easy to obtain if you have about $350. The standards (both demonstrated teaching ability and shooting performance) are way too low for a valid certification. Despite this, the instructor in the video violated much of what the NRA teaches plus several basic gun safety rules - he should lose his certification and his ability to teach where he does. I suspect he will.

As a Training Counselor, all I can say is that unless the TC's hold to very high standards instructor candidates like this get approved. There was a period where quality control by NRA Training Dept. was slipping. They (NRA) have been working very hard to correct that.

Chasbo00 · Post by **Chasbo00** » Tue, 02 Aug 2011 11:12:51

Aroooo wrote:
Chasbo00 wrote:Unfortunately, there are a lot of incompetents out there claiming to be handgun instructors, and the NRA's certification for a pistol instructor is far too easy to obtain if you have about $350. The standards (both demonstrated teaching ability and shooting performance) are way too low for a valid certification. Despite this, the instructor in the video violated much of what the NRA teaches plus several basic gun safety rules - he should lose his certification and his ability to teach where he does. I suspect he will.
As a Training Counselor, all I can say is that unless the TC's hold to very high standards instructor candidates like this get approved. There was a period where quality control by NRA Training Dept. was slipping. They (NRA) have been working very hard to correct that.

What, if anything, will happen to the Training Counselor who recommended the guy in the video for certification? What are some examples of what the NRA is doing to improve quality control by the training department?

I considered getting an NRA pistol instructors certification not long ago as I'm retired now and often find myself taking friends and neighbors to the range for some pistol fun shooting. Most of these folks are novices and a few never fired a pistol before. Several of these folks have asked me to teach them or one of their relatives how to shoot. I have no interest in doing this professionally, but I would like to better prepared to teach pistol shooting to people I know. However, after researching the NRA's pistol instructor course and standards, I was shocked by what I consider to be a weak program with low standards. I'm now considering attending a few basic pistol courses myself, taking away some structure and content info, and then developing my own program. The teaching I expect to do will be mainly one-on-one.

Should I reconsider an NRA pistol instructors's certification? If so, why?

Aroooo · Post by **Aroooo** » Tue, 02 Aug 2011 13:45:05

Chasbo00,

First, let me state that I have only been a TC for a little over 3 years, so my experience is a bit limited. Also, I do not work for the NRA. I am an 'independent' instructor and Training Counselor. I focus mainly on teaching adult Boy Scout Leaders so they can run shooting sports programs. But I do some commercial instruction (both basic and instructor training). My company is working on building a training center in the not-to-distant future. But for now this is a side business for me and my partners.

Historically, there was a bit of 'arm chair' TC Workshops going on. (A TC Workshop is where Instructors go to become Training Counselors.) They used to be conducted by local Senior and Master TCs at the direction/request of the NRA. That all changed recently, and now the NRA conducts TC Workshops directly and invites selective TC's to help deliver the workshops.

I know that if an NRA Instructor is reported to the NRA training department, an investigation is launched; including who their TC is/was. Repercussions to either the instructor or TC can be mild (smack on the wrist) to severe (credentials revoked). Its all based on the situation. Something like the video above I'm pretty sure the instructor would lose his credentials, and the TC would probably be put on probation or suspended. That would probably depend on what the TC reports. If the instructor was a good student, then maybe these 'bad habits' developed after the class.

TC's have a long term responsibility to look after their instructor candidates. But the NRA realizes that's not always possible or realistic. I try to keep in touch with all my students, but admit that I don't have the time to visit each one personally to see how they are doing.

Regarding your comment "weak program with low standards" I'm not sure what your research or experience indicated to you. Was this recently? If I knew some specifics I could address your concerns more directly.

I would consider getting your instructor credentials. First and foremost, credentials will give you a bit of 'authority,' or as I like to say, 'recognized subject matter expert.' There is a reason the BSA only allows NRA instructors to teach merit badges; because they have been taught the 'civilian' method of instruction. While I have the utmost respect for our service men/women and law enforcement communities, they tend to teach from a different perspective or mind-set. I don't want to instill potentially bad habits in our youth by calling a firearm a weapon. A rifle is a rifle. My iPhone can be a weapon too. So can a hammer. A firearm is a tool, and like any other tool, can be used for good or bad. (Sorry, hope that didn't sound like a soap-box rant.) Second, being an Instructor gives you credibility at commercial ranges. Gives you access to many instructor discount programs. Discounts on firearm instructor insurance. Etc.

I don't like to 'hawk my wares' in public, so if you'd like to know more about me and my company specifically, follow the URL in my sig or send me a PM. If you have more questions about the instructor or TC programs in general I'd be happy to answer them as best I can.

Tony

Chasbo00 · Post by **Chasbo00** » Tue, 02 Aug 2011 17:56:50

Aroooo,

Thank you for a good reply to my questions.

I've not changed my thinking on attending the NRA's Pistol Instructor Course, but I'm pleased to hear from a training counselor that things are not as bad as I had thought regarding the course and the NRA's certification process. I just don't think it's a good fit for me.

Instructor credentials really don't interest me. The folks I take pistol shooting who want to do more of it are mainly interested in shooting better. They want to shoot more and get better as fast as they can. I'm interested in techniques of how I can more efficiently make them better pistol shooters. I'm happy to send folks to either a basic pistol class or a CHP class for that training as appropriate.

Thanks again.

Charlie

Post by **zephyp** » Wed, 03 Aug 2011 06:50:19

Wow...looks like he had students pointing their own weapons too...and at him...and the narrator too...egad....and he stepped way back once or twice...defensive shooting should be practiced up close...surprising no one was shot...

Aroooo · Post by **Aroooo** » Wed, 03 Aug 2011 08:10:22

Chasbo00 wrote:Instructor credentials really don't interest me. The folks I take pistol shooting who want to do more of it are mainly interested in shooting better. They want to shoot more and get better as fast as they can. I'm interested in techniques of how I can more efficiently make them better pistol shooters. I'm happy to send folks to either a basic pistol class or a CHP class for that training as appropriate.

Then here's one big reason to consider becoming an Instructor. As I'm sure you know, instructor courses are not about teaching the instructor candidate how to shoot. There are pre-course qualifications that must be met before one can participate in an instructor course. (That's one of the new, big changes to improve the program.) Instructor courses are there to teach the accomplished shooter how to teach. We cover a lot of ground, from how to teach the fundamentals of shooting, to how to diagnose shooter problems. What to look for, how to correct. How to teach to different age groups and skill sets.

Tony

Chasbo00 · Post by **Chasbo00** » Wed, 03 Aug 2011 09:35:12

Aroooo wrote:
Chasbo00 wrote:Instructor credentials really don't interest me. The folks I take pistol shooting who want to do more of it are mainly interested in shooting better. They want to shoot more and get better as fast as they can. I'm interested in techniques of how I can more efficiently make them better pistol shooters. I'm happy to send folks to either a basic pistol class or a CHP class for that training as appropriate.
Then here's one big reason to consider becoming an Instructor. As I'm sure you know, instructor courses are not about teaching the instructor candidate how to shoot. There are pre-course qualifications that must be met before one can participate in an instructor course. (That's one of the new, big changes to improve the program.) Instructor courses are there to teach the accomplished shooter how to teach. We cover a lot of ground, from how to teach the fundamentals of shooting, to how to diagnose shooter problems. What to look for, how to correct. How to teach to different age groups and skill sets.

Tony

Here are some concerns I have based on my previous research:

The pistol instructor's course is only 10 hours and course content appears limited with respect to diagnosing and fixing shooting performance problems. There appears to be too much emphasis on peripheral things not related to pistol shooting skills - just my opinion.

I could find no definitive answer to the question of what specifically are the standards (requirements) for the before-course shooting skill test. What I did find were various divergent answers from various sources, none of which I would consider official. What are the specific standards required?

Course written test - 90% correct on a multiple-choice test required, but it's OPEN BOOK. I would expect a prospective pistol instructor to know his stuff and not need to look up important or meaningful information. Knowledge of Important and meaningful information is what the test measures right?

The NRA's training counselors appear to have an extremely wide degree of latitude with respect to recommending someone for certification. I find this disturbing as it leads to potential abuse. Specific and strong standards for becoming a pistol instructor would go a long way to help here, but I don't see any. I could not find the standards to become a training counselor either.

It's easy to throw rocks at something and I've thrown a few above at the NRA's pistol instructor's course and certification process. Developing and sustaining basic and effective instruction plus a cadre of instructors suitable for the population at large is not easy. On balance, the NRA does a pretty fair job here especially with respect to safety and basic skills. My discontent here is primarily that I'm looking for more than that and that I'm a stickler for high, objectively measurable standards.

Charlie

Aroooo · Post by **Aroooo** » Wed, 03 Aug 2011 10:59:46

Charlie,

All good questions. I'll try to address them for you as best I can.

Course length: Yes, the Pistol Instructor course is 10 hours. But what you probably did not find is that the discipline specific course is actually part 2 of a full instructor course. The first part of the course is called Basic Instructor Training (BIT). This is the NRA's 'train the trainer' course. It teaches the IC the NRA teaching methodology, how to set up and deliver a course, how to access students. etc. This course is generally only required once, but if you add an instructor discipline more than two years since you took BIT, you are required to take it again. BIT is 6 hours, for a total of 16 hours for a first time Pistol Instructor Candidate.

Pre-course quals: each prospective instructor candidate (IC) must pass the student exam with a score of 90% or better. There is also an extensive student survey (occupation, training experience, shooting experience, etc.). There is also a multi-part gun handling skills test involving loading and unloading several action types. There is a pair of stoppage drill tests. All those tests are scored, and IC must pass each with a 80% or better. The live fire test involves shooting a target at 15 yards for score (48 min of 60 max points). During each part of the testing, the 3 NRA fundamental rules for safe gun handling must be observed and not violated. Any safety violations pretty much mean they fail that section. (Example, if you sweep yourself during the unload a semi-auto, you fail that section.) The way points are allocated on each part, there is little margin for error.

IC Course Written Test: Yes, the exam(s) are open book (both BIT and the discipline test). But there is a lot of material handed out in class, and the NRA acknowledges that not everyone is a good test taker, or has an eidetic memory. Also, for many IC this is the first time they have seen the "NRA Way" in print. For the NRA, there is a lot of emphasis on the civilian methodology; firearm vs weapon for example. While a lot of ex-military may be familiar with Jeff Cooper's 4 Gun Safety Rules for instance, they may not be familiar with the NRA's version. Per-existing knowledge is important, and by the time IC take the class, the TC should have a pretty good assessment of each IC.

"The NRA's training counselors appear to have an extremely wide degree of latitude with respect to recommending someone for certification." That was certainly true in the past. For example, the pre-course qualification used to be a pre-course assessment. No score required. Now, scores are required. TCs are held more accountable for those they recommend for credentials, and risk losing their TC status if there is abuse.

Becoming a TC: minimum is two years as an active instructor. Deliver a minimum of five classes, and teach a minimum of 25 students (total, not each class). Prospective TCs submit an application (which includes letters of recommendation) to the NRA Training Department, and are reviewed and accessed by the TC Coordinator. You must be approved by the NRA to take a TC workshop. As I mentioned previously, only the NRA now delivers TC workshops, with assistance from local TCs. This way they can assure the high quality standards that they want in their TCs and Instructors.

"appears limited with respect to diagnosing and fixing shooting performance problems" This one is a little harder to answer directly. During an instructor class, ICs do a lot of the 'teaching.' The TCs access the ICs performance, and provide constant (positive) feedback. During the live fire portion of the class, either the ICs or the TCs will shoot, and shoot 'poorly,' causing the ICs to figure out what the problem is and the solution. For example, if a role play scenario calls for the beginner shooter to have a poor grip, the IC playing the student role should have a poor grip. The 'teaching' IC needs to spot that and correct. Each round of shooting is accessed to make sure the goals were met. So while there is no specific 'benchmark' to meet, there is a lot of 'how-to' instruction going on by the TCs.

If an IC does not demonstrate or possess the requisite "knowledge, skills, and attitude" to become a full instructor, the TC may recommend them to be an Assistant Instructor. A good example is someone who has good classroom teaching skills, but has not mastered how to diagnose a shooter on the line. TCs also have the right (and responsibility) to not recommend an IC for credentials if they don't meet the high standards of the Training Department. I may have alluded to this previously, but TCs are required to help their ICs build their own training teams. They are also encouraged to follow up and 'look in' on their IC students. Watch them teach classes. Its a commitment to continual evaluation.

From the TC Guide:
"An NRA Training Counselor appointment is not for everyone. It involves a very specific commitment to the NRA, its membership, and the shooting community as a whole, to conduct instructor training on a regular basis. It is a responsibility requiring considerable time, effort, and sacrifice, as well as a special dedication and desire to do the best possible job. It is extremely challenging, but extremely rewarding as well. In fulfilling this commitment, Training Counselors exercise a special leadership role, and make a contribution that is vitally important to the future of our firearm freedoms and the shooting sports.

"In training the instructors who teach shooters in NRA basic courses, Training Counselors carry an enonnous responsibility. The example they set is multiplied many times over in the courses conducted by the instructors they train. The NRA wants all of its trainers to be thoroughly prepared to conduct high quality courses completely and effectively. This book is designed to help the Training Counselor perfonn that task."

I hope that sheds a better light on the world of TCs. Sorry for the long post, and partially hijacking the thread.

Tony

Chasbo00 · Post by **Chasbo00** » Wed, 03 Aug 2011 13:49:16

Tony, thanks for your great reply. The NRA is truly getting their money's worth from you for providing solid ambassadorial services as well as the excellent instruction I'm sure you provide.

Just a few comments and a couple more questions...

I'm aware the BIT is generic and not a part of the 10 hour pistol specific course. My research suggests it's not very popular with the students and some think some portions are well past their sell-by dates. Yet, results speak for themselves and this approach does work. I suspect there may be considerable room for improvement though.

Regarding the pre-course qualification, you stated; "The live fire test involves shooting a target at 15 yards for score (48 min of 60 max points)". How many rounds, from what position(s) and hand grip(s), how fast, and on what type target? [I'm just mainly curious here. I don't think an instructor needs to be a super shot, just competent enough to demonstrate basic shooting skills to others.]

I have a problem with open-book tests, especially for an instructor's course. At best, open-book tests are a way to get the students read the written course materiel thoroughly and the test is often asking about minutia in order to achieve this goal. At worst, they are just a waste of time. My belief is that a valid written test measures knowledge that is important and meaningful to what is being trained - information that a competent student should know and not have to look up. I get it that the NRA does not want to scare away prospective students.

During my previous research, I came across a post from someone who said the NRA has sent letters to existing trainers that it is searching for "gun people" to become instructors. They want folks who know what they are doing. I think one of your previous replies in this thread alluded to this as well. Are there any rewards or incentives for recruiting well-qualified instructor candidates?

You have mentioned the weapon word in a couple of posts now. Being a retired military guy, I sometimes use that word. But, I don't have a problem with the NRA not wanting anyone to say weapon or GOA when in or teaching one of their courses.

You also mentioned the NRA's three rules of gun safety vs. Coopers four rules. I think Coopers rules are both more practical and much more widely known and accepted. The NRA makes a distinction between gun handling vs. using and storing. Why? This results in several additional lessor rules beyond the basic three - too many to expect people to really remember. http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp

Again, thanks for a great reply. I may come to one your courses just to meet you. I'm pretty sure I would learn a few things too.

Regards,
Charlie

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