Philly Police Harass, Threaten to Shoot Man Legally Carrying

[Mindflayer]

http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stoss ... rrying-gun

Read the full story, but quick summary (OS X summarize, so don't blame me):

A story in today's Philadelphia Daily News shows why it's so important that citizens be allowed to videotape cops - it can be citizens' only way to fight back against police abuse of power.


This incident happened several weeks ago in Philadelphia to Mark Fiorino, a 25-year-old IT worker who carries a gun on his hip at all times for self defense.

...On a mild February afternoon, Fiorino, 25, decided to walk to an AutoZone on Frankford Avenue in Northeast Philly with the .40-caliber Glock he legally owns holstered in plain view on his left hip.

...What happened next would be hard to believe, except that Fiorino audio-recorded all of it: a tense, profanity-laced, 40-minute encounter with cops who told him that what he was doing - openly carrying a gun on the city's streets - was against the law.


...It went on like that for a little while, until other officers responded to Dougherty's calls for backup.


Fiorino was forced to the ground and shouted at as he tried to explain that he had a firearms license and was legally allowed to openly carry his weapon.


...Fiorino said he sat handcuffed in a police wagon while the officers made numerous phone calls to supervisors, trying to find out if they could lock him up.


...A new investigation was launched, and last month the District Attorney's Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct because, a spokeswoman said, he refused to cooperate with police...

...If one listens to the audiotapes, it's hard to imagine how a reasonable person could charge Fiorino (and not the cops) for disorderly conduct.

[allingeneral]

WOW.

[allingeneral]

Here's the relevant thread at PAFOA.org (Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association).

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/1 ... carry.html

[jsharlan]

I see the training program for these police officers has been highly effective. Oh well, just sprinkle some coke on him and start pistol whipping him, can always make up some charges later.

[Kreutz]

I see the training program for these police officers has been highly effective. Oh well, just sprinkle some coke on him and start pistol whipping him, can always make up some charges later.

But...but... the policeman is my friend. I've been told that since I was four. have I been lied to?

[TheGodfather]

This is in Philthy. Nothing that comes out of that rat hole suprises me.

[VBshooter]

Nothing new there,,,I have worked in Philly many times and the best thing to do is CYA and don't do anything to attract the law.. They are in 2 words... Miserable Bastards! Will go out of their way to screw with you for the slightest thing,and enjoy themselves doing it..In their opinion it would seem they own the city and your just an annoyance to be dealt with any way they please, The City of Brotherly Shove!!

[NickLikesGuns]

This is in Philthy. Nothing that comes out of that rat hole suprises me.

+1

[widefat]

I'll probably get ....'forum counseled' for this....
yeah, the officers over reacted - but why did he try and argue with a cop that was obviously intent on disarming him. When is the last time you heard of an officer putting his gun away and saying "oh, sorry old chap - my mistake." before he had his man on the ground. The more the fella argued (and yes - he was arguing, no matter how nice he was), the angrier the cop got. From what I heard, the DA could indeed charge him with refusing to cooperate.
Was the cop wrong? Absolutely! But the battle comes after the situation is diffused.
Me? The first words out oy my mouth would have been "yes sir", followed by more "yes sir's" as
I followed his every command.

[gunderwood]

I'll probably get ....'forum counseled' for this....
yeah, the officers over reacted - but why did he try and argue with a cop that was obviously intent on disarming him. When is the last time you heard of an officer putting his gun away and saying "oh, sorry old chap - my mistake." before he had his man on the ground. The more the fella argued (and yes - he was arguing, no matter how nice he was), the angrier the cop got. From what I heard, the DA could indeed charge him with refusing to cooperate.
Was the cop wrong? Absolutely! But the battle comes after the situation is diffused.
Me? The first words out oy my mouth would have been "yes sir", followed by more "yes sir's" as
I followed his every command.

Here in VA common law protects your right to resist/not cooperate with unlawful actions. That right has been greatly restricted in recent years, but at least here in VA he would have done no wrong (AFAIK). Corruption with a badge is still corruption and IMHO, compelling people to comply with it is immoral and not conducive to the building of a good society. I don't know about PA though. In any case, we pay LEOs to be professionals regardless what the other fella says.

Bad cops do this and get away with it because they know people like you (most) will roll over and take it. They like wielding that power over you.

[Tweaker]

YOU VIL COMPLY!

I am in PHL daily now, and armed. I do not open carry and this is why. I fear teh peace officers...ah...protecting servants...um...law ENFORCEMENT occifers more than I do the local brother on brother criminal element.

Mindf, I just stopped getting pissed about this, and you had to re post this. Damnit!

He was NOT charged that day by the way, but only weeks/months later because HE POSTED THE EXCHANGE ON YOU TUBE!

Does that make you more angry?

Puck Filadephia

[grumpyMSG]

This case seems to be a cousin to one from Virginia, Aaron A. Stevenson VS. Roanoke City Police Officers.
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/231422
[urlhttps://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B61j4W5ufFbcNmJjN2IxODItMjNiOC00OTgwLWFmZjItNjMyYjkwYzhiZTFi&authkey=CLrg3LkK&hl=en][/url]
It sucks that such a precedent exists and I believe that the Cities and the Officers involved in cases like these should be required to hold a public press conferences offering apologies and announce the corrective training necessary to prevent a repeat occurrence.

[Kreutz]

This case seems to be a cousin to one from Virginia, Aaron A. Stevenson VS. Roanoke City Police Officers.
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/231422
[urlhttps://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B61j4W5ufFbcNmJjN2IxODItMjNiOC00OTgwLWFmZjItNjMyYjkwYzhiZTFi&authkey=CLrg3LkK&hl=en][/url]
It sucks that such a precedent exists and I believe that the Cities and the Officers involved in cases like these should be required to hold a public press conferences offering apologies and announce the corrective training necessary to prevent a repeat occurrence.

Ah, the RCPD. I hope he wins.

[grumpyMSG]

Sorry got the URL wrong with the judgement, I should have previewed it:
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B6 ... 3LkK&hl=en

[allingeneral]

I'll probably get ....'forum counseled' for this....
yeah, the officers over reacted - but why did he try and argue with a cop that was obviously intent on disarming him. When is the last time you heard of an officer putting his gun away and saying "oh, sorry old chap - my mistake." before he had his man on the ground. The more the fella argued (and yes - he was arguing, no matter how nice he was), the angrier the cop got. From what I heard, the DA could indeed charge him with refusing to cooperate.
Was the cop wrong? Absolutely! But the battle comes after the situation is diffused.
Me? The first words out oy my mouth would have been "yes sir", followed by more "yes sir's" as
I followed his every command.

I do agree that the guy was a bit more argumentative than he had to be, but he did offer, on multiple occasions, to show the officer his PA LTCF (License to Conceal Firearm), and the officer refused and cursed him. The officer had his gun drawn and trained on the guy - let him get his wallet for crying out loud. The LTCF should have quelled the dispute.

Clearly, it's impossible for the police to know every law - however, I think that if I were a police officer, gun laws would be some of the ones that I would study up on.

[SgtBill]

Ok, here I go. I believe that both party's were wrong. The asswipe with the openly carried weapon for doing so in a place like Phila. Phila. is not like say Richmond or Lynchburg where you may see someone carrying a weapon every day exposed to the public. This alone will cause alarm to general populace let alone Police Officers. He was also wrong in not complying and arguing with the Cop. If I have a Cop pointing a weapon at me I will comply even if I am right 100% and get thing's worked out later.
The Cop is wrong in his inability to remain calm and well informed on the law's of Penna. He should have known that some people if not a whole hell of a lot of people in Penna. have a CCWP. Sure the civilian had the right to carry exposed but why do so and bring yourself heat and or possible arrest because something that did not need to happen escalated to an arrest because of 2 asswipes the Cop and the Civilian involved.
Bill

[mrjam2jab]

I do agree that the guy was a bit more argumentative than he had to be, but he did offer, on multiple occasions, to show the officer his PA LTCF (License to Conceal Firearm), and the officer refused and cursed him. The officer had his gun drawn and trained on the guy - let him get his wallet for crying out loud. The LTCF should have quelled the dispute.

Clearly, it's impossible for the police to know every law - however, I think that if I were a police officer, gun laws would be some of the ones that I would study up on.

Not necessarily....this cop...a SGT mind you....was convinced that OC is illegal in Phila...despite annual update training in 2009 and a Phila Directive in 2010 saying it is legal....

[widefat]

Here in VA common law protects your right to resist/not cooperate with unlawful actions. That right has been greatly restricted in recent years, but at least here in VA he would have done no wrong (AFAIK). Corruption with a badge is still corruption and IMHO, compelling people to comply with it is immoral and not conducive to the building of a good society. I don't know about PA though. In any case, we pay LEOs to be professionals regardless what the other fella says.

Bad cops do this and get away with it because they know people like you (most) will roll over and take it. They like wielding that power over you.

I get it re rolling over, but there's a time and a place to roll over, and a time and place to stand.
What are the chances that the cop had his finger securely planted on the trigger and had already taken up the slack?
Was he at the end of his 12 hour mid-shift? Off of a bender the night before? The public, the media, and certainly the city govt are going to take the side of the cop. Just to many variables for me, personally, to face down a cop pointing a gun at me just to argue over my right to carry. My rights do me know good if I have a bullet hit me center mass.
This dude was secured, and on the ground: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aSJgcpqePk
A tense situation that is funny to watch now, but just imagine. (Sorry about the "stupid fat cop" title - fat has nothing to do with it)

Seriously though - and I do mean this - thank you that you are willing to defend the right to carry to great lengths.

[wylde007]

Ok, here I go. I believe that both party's were wrong. The asswipe with the openly carried weapon for doing so in a place like Phila.

So the guy is an asswipe for knowing AND exercising his rights?

Phila. is not like say Richmond or Lynchburg where you may see someone carrying a weapon every day exposed to the public. This alone will cause alarm to general populace let alone Police Officers.

It can get them called on you in Richmond or Lynchburg, too, but this is not Moscow it is America [sic].

He was also wrong in not complying and arguing with the Cop. If I have a Cop pointing a weapon at me I will comply even if I am right 100% and get thing's worked out later.

Non-compliance with an illegal order executed at gunpoint is still NOT A CRIME.

The problem here is authoritarian cops believing that citizens should bow to their whims and, rather than call a supervisor or, I don't know, actually DO THEIR JOBS, they subjected a law-abiding citizen to a FEAR OF HIS LIFE episode because they were not only ignorant of the law, but they out-and-out REFUSED to listen to a reasonable person.

Sure the civilian had the right to carry exposed but why do so and bring yourself heat and or possible arrest because something that did not need to happen escalated to an arrest because of 2 asswipes the Cop and the Civilian involved.

Only one asswipe - the cop.

We carry openly because it is our RIGHT to do so. Just because a cop does not like it does not make it a crime - and cops who abuse the citizenry under color of law should be dealt with swiftly and sternly.

[jim100]

Ok, here I go. I believe that both party's were wrong. The asswipe with the openly carried weapon for doing so in a place like Phila.

So the guy is an asswipe for knowing AND exercising his rights?

Phila. is not like say Richmond or Lynchburg where you may see someone carrying a weapon every day exposed to the public. This alone will cause alarm to general populace let alone Police Officers.

It can get them called on you in Richmond or Lynchburg, too, but this is not Moscow it is America [sic].

He was also wrong in not complying and arguing with the Cop. If I have a Cop pointing a weapon at me I will comply even if I am right 100% and get thing's worked out later.

Non-compliance with an illegal order executed at gunpoint is still NOT A CRIME.

The problem here is authoritarian cops believing that citizens should bow to their whims and, rather than call a supervisor or, I don't know, actually DO THEIR JOBS, they subjected a law-abiding citizen to a FEAR OF HIS LIFE episode because they were not only ignorant of the law, but they out-and-out REFUSED to listen to a reasonable person.

Sure the civilian had the right to carry exposed but why do so and bring yourself heat and or possible arrest because something that did not need to happen escalated to an arrest because of 2 asswipes the Cop and the Civilian involved.

Only one asswipe - the cop.

We carry openly because it is our RIGHT to do so. Just because a cop does not like it does not make it a crime - and cops who abuse the citizenry under color of law should be dealt with swiftly and sternly.

+1