Just how bad are cheap safes for security?

[gunderwood]

I have an older variant of this Sentry Fire Safe: http://www.sentrysafe.com/Products/395/ ... FIRE-SAFE_

I bought it a few years ago because I wanted to keep a few important documents safe (from fire). I knew at the time that I was buying a cheap safe that would not stop a thief from stealing what ever is in it (which is why it has no valuables). Well today it quit working. The electronic keypad took the code fine, but the solenoid wasn't actuating. I did a quick Google search and sure enough that is a common problem. I tried banging on the front of it to "loosen the solenoid," but to no avail. Now I've been inside this thing before to replace the keypad (which previously failed...you don't have to, but I wanted to see how it works). I knew that the solenoid had a plastic bit on the end of it and that was the only thing keeping the handle from turning once you used the cylinder key. So I just hit the handle with a dead blow once and it opens! Now, there is also a little cylinder lock/key that keeps the handle from turning, but it really isn't much. I bet you could drill that out in seconds as all the parts are cast pot metal. A saws-all on the bolts works just fine too.

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I bring this up because by most commodity store standards that is a "higher-end" model. From what I've seen, most gun safes are built just like that too (slightly better, but not by much). Sure, they put on a good show with huge locking bolts, but they don't extend into the safe or they put a lot of drywall in them to make them heavy, etc. Brown Safes has the best information I have found on real security and fire protection. http://www.brownsafe.com/features_Fire_ ... n_Features

How much protection you need and how much money you want to spend is up to you. I bought the Sentry because I wanted basic fire protection and didn't have valuables to store. I'll be replacing it with something much better.

Edit: All I have to do is replace the solenoid and the little plastic knob that I broke opening it this way and it will be just like it came from the factory...

[gunderwood]

I should note for anyone trying this that the cylinder lock must be undone for this to work. As cheaply made as that lock is, I bet you would stripe-out/break the even cheaper plastic gear on the handle first. I had the key so I just unlocked it and then it was just the electronic lock which was keeping it closed and so easily opened. That cylinder lock is the best security this safe has IMHO.

If you don't have the key, the cylinder lock is literally just a pin that blocks the rotation of the handle. It too is cheap cast pot metal. The lock is unprotected and is of cheap design. I bet you could defeat it easily or worst case just drill it out in seconds. Once removed the dead-blow trick will break the electronic locks plastic piece which is then the only thing blocking the rotation of the handle.

Sentry should just do way with the electronic lock and use the cylinder only. In reality that is the only "security" this safe has. Like most cheap safes, all show very little go.

[zephyp]

Most of the decent gun safes (security containers) have a clutch on the handle...smack em with a hammer and they simply break and spin free I believe.

[Paliden]

Correct, most of the time it is only a roll pin that holds the handle to the bolt cam. It's done that way on purpose. In your really cheap safe the tumbler and bot are made of plastic. You key lock, if I told you how easy that was to get into you would pass out! The other day I did a job opening 25 filing cadinets in under a hour. One I spent 30 mins opening where someone else tried to drill it open and *(&^ed it up.
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!!!!!!!
If you don't need fire protection for a lot, buy a std. safe and a fire box to put inside.

[wylde007]

I was watching that show "To Catch a Thief" and a common thread that they touched on with some frequency was safes.

Bolt them down.

It is more a deterrent for preventing immediate theft. If a thief can just take the whole safe, then he can spend time busting it later.

Thieves will generally spend less than ten minutes ransacking a home. A safe is meant to occupy their time. A good thief will move on to more immediately accessible items unless he knows for sure that his efforts will pay off.

So, while I agree that you "get what you pay for" it is just as important to apply your security measures effectively (perhaps even more so) as it is to have them at all.

[Paliden]

I was watching that show "To Catch a Thief" and a common thread that they touched on with some frequency was safes.

Bolt them down.

It is more a deterrent for preventing immediate theft. If a thief can just take the whole safe, then he can spend time busting it later.

Thieves will generally spend less than ten minutes ransacking a home. A safe is meant to occupy their time. A good thief will move on to more immediately accessible items unless he knows for sure that his efforts will pay off.

So, while I agree that you "get what you pay for" it is just as important to apply your security measures effectively (perhaps even more so) as it is to have them at all.

Most of your cheap safe can be open in a matter of a couple minutes because they are cheap and when the cheap ones are bolted down you cut your open time in half. Be there I've done it

[zephyp]

Bolted down safes add more protection than just being able to cart it off. Many gun safes full of guns weigh over 1000 lbs. Not easy to cart off. A free standing safe can be pushed onto the floor on its back giving a couple of thugs more leverage to pry the door open with tankers bars. Most safes otherwise relatively secure can be opened this way in a few short minutes...

[wylde007]

Most of your cheap safe can be open in a matter of a couple minutes because they are cheap and when the cheap ones are bolted down you cut your open time in half. Be there I've done it

When you are dealing in small blocks of time, two minutes is an eternity.

Good plan: cheap safe, bolted down.
Better plan: good safe. bolted down.

[Jakeiscrazy]

Since we are on the topic what do you guys have for gun safes? Anyone have on of those cool light setups that makes you safe so bright you can shoot a movie in it?

[wylde007]

Hahaha.

I use a GunVault with Biometric lock. MBV500

I have the little one which is supposedly good for use in a vehicle, too (under the seat).

I contemplated getting a MiniVault (GVB1000) but I do not use my safe for long-term storage. It is for my carry gun only when I am not wearing it, mostly to keep it away from little hands, if you catch my meaning.

I do think they are a good product, but my experience is very limited.

[Paliden]

Since we are on the topic what do you guys have for gun safes? Anyone have on of those cool light setups that makes you safe so bright you can shoot a movie in it?

Since I was in the business I came across a good deal on one "FREE"
5'Hx6'Wx2'D 6 compartment, 1/2 steel, ALL doors have combo lock and safety deposit lock securing them, weight 2000 lbs
NO pics available!

[DWinter]

I'd just sit a 180lb Rottwieller with a bad case of the red ass in front of it and worry no more.

[Diomed]

I've held for years that most gun safes (and gun safes aren't even safes in security business lingo) are only good for stopping semi-retarded meth heads - and they'll just come back later to finish the job since they now know you must have something worth money. A competent thief can get into most of them surprisingly quickly with some basic tools. The Sawzall and the angle grinder are God's gift to wannabe safecrackers. They're not great for fire protection either, if you're lucky you get a rusty pile of wet guns, and not a rusty pile of wet detempered guns.

If you want to protect your wallet, a good insurance policy is the way to go. If you want to keep them out of the hands of criminals ... opsec, layers of physical security, and luck.

[Yarddawg]

+1000 Diomed!

I can hide more valuables in relatively "open" areas of my house, and no one would be the wiser. Will this protect those items in the event of a fire? No. That is what a GOOD homeowners policy is for.

In the event of a fire, I am far more interested in making sure that my family is safe and protected. The material objects of our lives can be replaced, our lives cannot!

[zephyp]

I like to employ multiple lines of defense...

1. Make it evident from the street that my house is not someplace criminals want to be...alarm sign in front yard and on windows...2A sticker on the door...Flag proudly displayed...numerous stickers on my truck...comings and goings with gun cases.

2. I try to keep shades drawn as much as possible. Young and I conflict on this so they go up and down.

3. Good door/window locks and discipline to use them even when home.

4. Good alarm system monitored by a local company...not some nation wide deal with a call center 5 states away. If my alarm trips my phone rings less than a minute later...I use a cell module for alarm monitoring so no phone line to disrupt...2 false alarms over 16 months and records show cops are there between 5-10 minutes. Btw, alarm systems arent as expensive as you think. Mine cost about $2500 to install (all doors, windows, and motion) plus $23 per month.

5. Good gun safe bolted to a concrete floor...if they get it open and steal my stuff that means 1-4 failed or there are catastrophic circumstances...

I highly recommend an alarm. Even a good gun safe can be opened by thugs given enough time...30 minutes max (or less) for most...so if you are off for a weekend retreat and the house is empty you come home to a mess. A decent alarm provides peace of mind 24/7. Its the last thing I do every night before I get in bed...well, actually the last thing I do is ask Young "honey can I get you anything before I come to bed..."

Most of the stories we read about intruders involve someone hearing a noise in the next room...my story would involve hearing a 100db noise coming from all directions...too loud to hear scumbag boots hitting the ground as they run...

Also, if I come home to an empty house I know the security status as soon as I open the door and check the alarm panel...

[gunderwood]

You key lock, if I told you how easy that was to get into you would pass out! The other day I did a job opening 25 filing cadinets in under a hour.

Having picked a few locks in other states for fun and knowledge you don't have to tell me.

[Jakeiscrazy]

4. Good alarm system monitored by a local company...not some nation wide deal with a call center 5 states away. If my alarm trips my phone rings less than a minute later...I use a cell module for alarm monitoring so no phone line to disrupt...2 false alarms over 16 months and records show cops are there between 5-10 minutes. Btw, alarm systems arent as expensive as you think. Mine cost about $2500 to install (all doors, windows, and motion) plus $23 per month.

Excellent comment, also great for any heavy sleepers like myself. Someone could break a window right next to me I might not wake up. Our alarm system goes off and I know it. It wakes you and gets you moving. It is also good in case of fires.

[zephyp]

4. Good alarm system monitored by a local company...not some nation wide deal with a call center 5 states away. If my alarm trips my phone rings less than a minute later...I use a cell module for alarm monitoring so no phone line to disrupt...2 false alarms over 16 months and records show cops are there between 5-10 minutes. Btw, alarm systems arent as expensive as you think. Mine cost about $2500 to install (all doors, windows, and motion) plus $23 per month.

Excellent comment, also great for any heavy sleepers like myself. Someone could break a window right next to me I might not wake up. Our alarm system goes off and I know it. It wakes you and gets you moving. It is also good in case of fires.

Yep...I've also got a coupla smoke detectors wired and monitored. I sleep better and rarely worry when we're away.

[mstuff]

Yep, drill into concrete pad and bolt them down

then look for the safe rating

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B2 — Underwriters' Laboratories Residential Security Container label (under $1,000 safes) (rated 5 minutes to break in)
Residential Security Container rating (RSC) - This UL rating is based on testing conducted for a net working time of five minutes, on all sides, with a range of tools.
Typically these LOOK like really good REAL gun safes from the outside, Lowes Home Depot etc

This is the MINIMUM and provides almost no real security from ME getting into your safe in minutes.

First- I would load it up and steal the entire thing if not bolted down, its all thin gauge metal so not too heavy for a good hand truck
Even bolted down, a good pry bar will break the bolt heads out of the metal floor safe, so use REALLY GOOD BOLTS and HUGE WASHERS or flat steel from Lowes is even better to spread the load on the floor of the safe, once they break two bolts free, the mass of the safe will break the other two, if the safe is against a wall or corner thats best, limit how they can rock and tilt it to one direction, then add MORE BOLTS AND HOLES to the side they will be prying tilting for the primary break

Second - I would try swinging the latch mechanism to see which way it swings to unlock, that tells me where the hinges are if they arent exposed
If it swings counterclockwise the hinges are on the right, and vice cersa
Once I know where the hinges are, I go 1 inch to the top left or right of the outside diameter of the combo lock dial on the OPPOSITE SIDE of the hinges and drill two holes 1/4 inch (18 gauge soft steel), to allow my sawzall in
Then insert the biimetal sawzall and cut down 1.5 inches, and the latch mechanism that is restrained by the combo lock (thin soft steel angle iron) , defeated
Turn latch door opens
Takes under 10 minutes

B4 — Underwriters' Laboratories TL-15 label (15 minutes)
TL-15 rating - The TL-15 rating means the safe has been tested for a net working time of 15 minutes using high speed drills, saws and other sophisticated penetrating equipment.

B5 — Underwriters' Laboratories TL-30 label (30 minutes)
TL-30 rating - A product carrying the TL-30 security label has been tested for a net working time of 30 minutes with the same types of tools mentioned above.

B6 — Underwriters' Laboratories TL-30X6 or TRTL-30 label
TL-30 x 6 - The TL-30 (30-minute) test is conducted on all six (6) sides of the safe.
TRTL-30 - The TRTL rating designates a safe which successfully resisted 30 minutes of net working time with a torch and a range of tools which might include high speed drills and saws with carbide bits, pry bars, and other impact devices.

I wouldnt buy a safe unless they remove the door inner cover and I can inspect it and see what I would need to cut passed the locks and hinges

Also, I would never have a key or bio lock, combo only, key and bio locks are the EASIEST to bypass

And combos are easy for u to change the comb yourself, and if you lost the combo and the door is open, easy to find the combo too

[Rumson]

If you want to keep the kids and their friends from gaining access, a cheap safe is OK.. Theft or fire requires a large investment and what others have stated above..