The new Ruger AR...

[Nathan]

Although it would seem the AR market is pretty crowded right now, I welcome Ruger's addition, even if they are a little late to the party. Be interesting to see how this thing works in the real world. Piston driven instead of DI gas system, 4 position gas regulator, Troy flip up sights, Troy quad rail hand guards, comes with 3 Pmags and Hogue grip out of the box. At least they didn't skimp on the parts. MSRP of $1995. Hoping it hits the shelves at quite a bit less than that. Of course, Gander Mountain will be charging full MSRP, lol.

At least Ruger has officially exited the Bill Ruger era of low cap mags and politically correct firearms. I'll give them credit for that.

Thoughts?

[CCFan]

New AR!! I recently picked up a Stag M4 mil-spec, so it might be a while before I consider another AR... I read a recent review that said the piston driven design wasn't as "jarring" as other AR platforms - I'm not sure I've ever fired an AR that would be considered "jarring"... But the rifle is a really nice looking piece of machinery. I just hope their recent penchant for recalls is over and done with... can't have too many AR rifles to choose from!

[OakRidgeStars]

Guns & Ammo magazine has a review of the new Ruger SR-556

http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/ ... ger+SR-556

[Nathan]

New AR!! I recently picked up a Stag M4 mil-spec, so it might be a while before I consider another AR... I read a recent review that said the piston driven design wasn't as "jarring" as other AR platforms - I'm not sure I've ever fired an AR that would be considered "jarring"... But the rifle is a really nice looking piece of machinery. I just hope their recent penchant for recalls is over and done with... can't have too many AR rifles to choose from!

The other benefit of the piston system is that it doesn't dump all the spent gases into the action. Much cleaner, and supposedly, more reliable. Of course, my two DI gas system ARs seem to run pretty well even with spent gas crud in the action. Doesn't mean I won't try and justify a new AR to the wife though!

[GS78]

Although it would seem the AR market is pretty crowded right now, I welcome Ruger's addition, even if they are a little late to the party. Be interesting to see how this thing works in the real world. Piston driven instead of DI gas system, 4 position gas regulator, Troy flip up sights, Troy quad rail hand guards, comes with 3 Pmags and Hogue grip out of the box. At least they didn't skimp on the parts. MSRP of $1995. Hoping it hits the shelves at quite a bit less than that. Of course, Gander Mountain will be charging full MSRP, lol.

At least Ruger has officially exited the Bill Ruger era of low cap mags and politically correct firearms. I'll give them credit for that.

Thoughts?

yeah but still, you're buying the name, nothing new...I have a S&W MP15, has all that stuff too, and is a better shooter ....the older rugers are still better bang for the buck, in my opinion.

[Jakeiscrazy]

This guy is the best reviewer I've seen to date. He reviews gear, guns, knifes, flashlights. His stuff is super. Here is his review of the SR-556.


Part One


Part Two:

[gunderwood]

Like everything, Piston ARs have pros can cons. Here are my thoughts.

Pros:
1. Cleaner action makes life easier and may make is more reliable. It is debatable how much this really helps because a good DI AR (which you could buy for the price of a piston AR easily) seems to run just fine even after thousands of rounds. What kills DI reliability is the environment. Other junk getting into them. E.g. even clean DI ARs in Iraq have jambed when needed because the sand is fine and gets everywhere. It isn't clear if by removing the gas/carbon fouling it makes the AR platform more resistant to the environment.

2. Less heat in the action. This is a big plus IMO.

3. No gas blowing into your face when suppressed. This can be worked around and the latest reflex suppressors are suppose to help considerably, but pistons have the clear advantage here.

4. Auto/manual adjustable piston gas systems. Potentially a life saver as you can adjust for poor quality ammo and suppressed/unsuppressed fire.

Cons
1. AR wasn't designed for a piston. This is causing two issues: bolt carrier tilt and bolt thrust. Bolt carrier tilt is caused because in a piston AR, the op rod taps the bolt carriers off center. This generally isn't an issue with DI as the gas enters the carrier/bolt and expands there (in a piston of sorts) so the forces are mostly centered. Bolt carrier tilt causes the rear buffer tube to wear funny. I'm not sure what long term reliability issues this may cause. The second issue is bolt thrust. In short, piston ARs tend to break bolts much faster than DI. Remember the gas that enters the carrier/bolt and expands? It pushes the carrier rearward and the bolt forward. This action reduces the loads on the locking lugs considerably (approximately the gas pressure inside that carrier/bolt is equal to the pressure in the barrel...it is wrong, but it gives you an idea of how this works). ARs have a habit of breaking a lug off due to the extractor design any ways. Piston ARs make this much worse. Several companies have designed proprietary carriers/bolts in an attempt to solve these problems.

2. Proprietary parts. There is no standard and they all are different. If the military ever adapts one, everyone else is hosed. Either they will find it harder/more expensive to get parts and/or they just lost a lot of value because everyone wants what the military standardized on. If the company goes out of business, you could be SOL too.

3. Poorly designed systems. Caveat emptor! Not all piston systems are designed to be equal. Some are poorly designed and break or malfunction frequently. Look for systems which have beefy op rods especially. If that bends even slightly you're SOL.

4. Piston systems that vent into your hands on free float tubes. One of the advanced ways to shoot an AR, particularly a carbine, is to hold the front hand way out by the gas block/piston. Some companies designed the piston to vent sideways, which isn't pleasant. If you want to see this style, look at how MAGPULs AFG was designed to be used.

5. Cost. A good piston AR is more expensive than a equivalent DI AR. This is changing though, but will probably never be equal until (if) our military adapts it.

6. Accuracy. Piston guns tend to be less accurate than DI because of all that mass hanging over the barrel. You can mitigate this somewhat by going to a heavier barrel, but on a carbine that is a step backwards.

7. Balance. Piston guns tend to have more weight forward. This isn't a big deal until you start hanging lights, suppressors, etc. off the front end and then that quarter pound you put out there for the gas system is a lot. Don't forget the extra pound due to the thicker barrel you used to maintain accuracy either.

Piston ARs are neat, but the cons outweigh the pros for me. I think that guns like the SCAR/ACR/XCR that were redesigns will do much better than piston ARs. They will have their own issues, but at least you're not trying to fix things that were designed for DI and aren't working well with the piston. That being said, they are still great guns and I wouldn't mind owning one. My SHTF AR is still DI though...for now.

[Mindflayer]

Over the last few weeks, I've fired both. I am in no way even at novice level, but I'll offer my thoughts. (Again, I have about 1/10000th of the knowledge that gunderwood has....)

* My SR-556 seems to get back on target faster than some of my friends' gas DI models. Might be the heavier barrel.
* It is heavier on the front end. Pound rounds out down an open range and you'll notice as you swing to each target. I'm not a big guy and it didn't bother me or wear me out like some people claim (OH NOES INTERNETS EXPERTS), but it was noticeable.
* Proprietary - my BCG is one solid piece that I can't find on Ruger's site for replacement. An advantage is that the key is integral. The disadvantage is, well, it's proprietary, and I'd imagine expensive.
* The receiver on my Ruger is cooler than the others. Err, temperature-wise.
* I have seen two gas DI models act up when not kept clean and wet. The guys refuse to fire Wolf Military Classic ammo since they are scared their weapons won't fire properly. I shoot that ammo with no worries.
* Accuracy? Well.... I am too bad a shot with the rifle to notice. I should probably bench shoot more and quit trying to stand and fire all the time.

The SCAR 16 has been discontinued, which probably means we'll see less and less - not sure if FN is going to build more for the civilian market with no prospect of continued military sales. (Meaning I do not know this market.)
I do not like it when my friends show me the ACR or XCR or whatever, and say, "Go on, hold it... no, go ahead, grab a magazine and fire it.... Isn't that nice?"

[gunderwood]

* My SR-556 seems to get back on target faster than some of my friends' gas DI models. Might be the heavier barrel.

Most likely the brake/flash hider differences or the DI gas system length. The piston ARs I have shot felt smoother than carbine gas system ARs. The carbine gas system is rough which is why the mid-length systems have become so popular.

* I have seen two gas DI models act up when not kept clean and wet. The guys refuse to fire Wolf Military Classic ammo since they are scared their weapons won't fire properly. I shoot that ammo with no worries.

Who's brand? There are a lot of poorly built ARs.

* Accuracy? Well.... I am too bad a shot with the rifle to notice. I should probably bench shoot more and quit trying to stand and fire all the time.

A good DI can shoot 1MOA with surplus, while most pistons I've seen shoot 1.5-2MOA unless the barrel is heavier.

[Mindflayer]

The sources for the initial reports of the FN SCAR 16 being dropped may be incorrect according to this article from today.

17:52 GMT, July 7, 2010 Belgium-based firearms manufacturer FN Herstal hereby refutes the allegations recently found on the web that USSOCOM abandoned the 5.56 version of the SCAR rifle and reconfirms USSOCOM's decision to acquire the full FN SCAR family of weapons, including the 5.56mm rifle.

The FN SCAR family of weapons consists of the 5.56mm SCAR rifle, 7.62mm SCAR® rifle and 40mm LV Enhanced Grenade Launcher Module (respectively designated as MK 16, MK 17 and MK 13 by USSOCOM). These three components were developed by FN Herstal in close cooperation with USSOCOM and have each met all the operational and fielding tests required by the program. This resulted in the notification by USSOCOM last May that the full SCAR system entered into Milestone C phase, allowing production and deployment of the full range of SCAR weapons. The 5.56 version will be part of USSOCOM's inventory.

The choice between the 5.56 and the 7.62 caliber will be left to the discretion of each constitutive component of USSOCOM's Joint Command (e.g. Seals, Rangers, Army Special Forces, USMC, AFSOC) depending on their specific missions on today's battlefield.

gunderwood - RRA and a KAC. (I think it was mostly operator error, to be honest in not keeping it clean and running them dry.)

Is it silly to want a SCAR because it's used in Left4Dead 2?

[grumpyMSG]

* Proprietary - my BCG is one solid piece that I can't find on Ruger's site for replacement. An advantage is that the key is integral. The disadvantage is, well, it's proprietary, and I'd imagine expensive.

I don't think you will have to worry about your carrier wearing out, anytime soon. The most that will happen to it is the finish will be worn off of it where it rubs. Your bolt carrier is made out of steel and the buffer tube is made out of aluminum, which do you think is going to wear out?

* The receiver on my Ruger is cooler than the others. Err, temperature-wise.

That is because the hot gasses are not being routed into your bolt carrier and staying cooler is a good thing.

* I have seen two gas DI models act up when not kept clean and wet. The guys refuse to fire Wolf Military Classic ammo since they are scared their weapons won't fire properly. I shoot that ammo with no worries.

As someone who won't shoot the Wolf ammo out of his AR, I can explain why I won't: Steel case ammo is painted with laquer to prevent rust. The problem is between the heat from firing and the gas blowing back into the bolt carrier, the chamber can get pretty hot quickly and melt the laquer. If allowed to cool in the chamber you could have a stuck round.

* Accuracy? Well.... I am too bad a shot with the rifle to notice. I should probably bench shoot more and quit trying to stand and fire all the time.

The standing position is the most unstable of the positions and needs the most practice to shoot accurately. I would recommend learning to shoot prone (laying down) first, then sitting and or kneeling and then move on to standing. One of the first things you should do is get a good zero with the rifle either off of a bench or in the prone, using sandbags to support the rifle.

People get wrapped around the axle on the AR family of rifles, the intended service life of the barrel is 8,000 to 10,000 rounds and most of the rest of the weapon will last longer. I have shot more than 500 rounds out of an M16A1 without worrying about cleaning it and the only jams that it had were, bolt over round. 9 times out of 10 those are caused by bad magazines. It doesn't matter whether the rifle is a D.I. type or Operating Rod type, a bad magazine will cause the same problem.

[gunderwood]

gunderwood - RRA and a KAC. (I think it was mostly operator error, to be honest in not keeping it clean and running them dry.)

Those are both very good ARs. ARs need a good bit of lube. When they jam up a couple drops of oil right into the piston area will usually keep them running.

As someone who won't shoot the Wolf ammo out of his AR, I can explain why I won't: Steel case ammo is painted with laquer to prevent rust. The problem is between the heat from firing and the gas blowing back into the bolt carrier, the chamber can get pretty hot quickly and melt the laquer. If allowed to cool in the chamber you could have a stuck round.

Not to mention it takes forever to get the carbon fouling out! I've shot some to try it and it took me twice as long to clean the AR. They use really low quality powder and it shows.

ARs get run at tactical training classes for 1-2k rounds and no cleaning. Properly lubed, the DI generally isn't a problem, but it is a pain to clean.

[Mindflayer]

I have read the same thing about the Wolf ammo before I bought it. I do a ton of research before spending any money, and I was aware of the concern. In this case, both were *not* aware of that issue. They just knew that cheap ammo caused them problems (brass or steel). I do think not properly cleaned and lubed may have been the issue. I didn't worry about it, but then again, I did my research and ensured I was well lubed, cleaned, and prepared.

Maybe I should pay gunderwood and grumpy for a training session.

[gunderwood]

Not me, but I do know some people.

http://precision-applications.com/home

[allingeneral]

Maybe I should pay gunderwood and grumpy for a training session.

An AR-15 training session? I'm up for it We can go to the range near Fredericksburg (Northern Virginia Gun Club) and shoot'em up, then have a "How to maintain your AR-15" class and a good cleaning

How's next weekend (17 July) sound?

[Jakeiscrazy]

The second issue is bolt thrust. In short, piston ARs tend to break bolts much faster than DI. Remember the gas that enters the carrier/bolt and expands? It pushes the carrier rearward and the bolt forward. This action reduces the loads on the locking lugs considerably (approximately the gas pressure inside that carrier/bolt is equal to the pressure in the barrel...it is wrong, but it gives you an idea of how this works). ARs have a habit of breaking a lug off due to the extractor design any ways. Piston ARs make this much worse. Several companies have designed proprietary carriers/bolts in an attempt to solve these problems.

Ruger's bolt it all one piece milled and what not.

As someone who won't shoot the Wolf ammo out of his AR, I can explain why I won't: Steel case ammo is painted with laquer to prevent rust. The problem is between the heat from firing and the gas blowing back into the bolt carrier, the chamber can get pretty hot quickly and melt the laquer. If allowed to cool in the chamber you could have a stuck round.

They don't do lacquer any more. If it is newly imported ammo, it is polymer.

[Unkn0wN]

A couple of things....

1. Wolf Ammo comes no where near any of my guns EXCEPT my SKS, especially not my Ruger...

2. If you want to shoot standing up, get you a sling on the gun to help steady it. I forget what it's called when you wrap the sling around your arm and tighten up, you can hold the gun pretty steady. Something we were taught in basic training back in the day.

[LFS]

I've personally experienced a stuck case with Wolf in my Mini-14 and seen it personally in an SR-556. I don't shoot Wolf any more. Life is too short to be jamming rods down your bore to free a stuck case.

My understanding is that it is not the coating on the case that causes the problem. People have taken blow torches to them and not melted the coating. My understanding of the problem is that the steal cases do not expand as much as brass, and therefore more carbon gets built up in the chamber. The combination of that, chamber tolerances, and heat build up can result in a stuck case.

[Chasbo00]

X I forget what it's called when you wrap the sling around your arm and tighten up, you can hold the gun pretty steady. Something we were taught in basic training back in the day.

It's called a hasty sling -- been a while since I heard the term though.

[Unkn0wN]

It's called a hasty sling -- been a while since I heard the term though.

Yeppers, that'd be it!!