Fiscal Commision Co-Chairs' Deficit Reduction Proposal

[ksanftleben]

Hot off the press, and it should be the talk of the news tonight.

Haven't had chance to review it in depth yet since we just got a copy late this afternoon.

Hope this downloads for you since it's a pdf file.

R/Kurt

[zephyp]

I wont comment specifically to the plan, not having time to study it but I will say this...

IMHO ANY BURDEN PLACED ON THE TAXPAYERS IS CRAP AND GARBAGE...

Notice I say taxpayers...its not our fault the country is broke. Its the fault of those with checkbook in hand spending our money like drunken sailors. Why should we have to foot the bill. Let them cut social programs first. And cut my social security benefits...I dont think so. I've paid a crap load of money into the system and still do...thats my money. Cut social security for all the bums first...

Now having said all that, its really OUR fault because we've collectively sat around for years and let these so called elected leaders do as they please...

Here are some of my proposals:

-Eliminate the Department of Education completely
-Same for Department of Energy
-Same for all these government organizations for the "Arts"
-Eliminate all (ALL) foreign aid
-Do a complete scrub of the welfare system to include food stamps - ensure that only those who really need it get it
-Same for Social Security - if you didnt pay in your 40 quarters you dont get anything
-Eliminate all government programs supporting multi languages for non-English speakers
-Mandate a 10% cut across all government agencies excluding defense (they/we get picked on first every time - national defense is supported by the Constitution)
-Eliminate ALL government support or aid to resident non-citizens unless they serve in the military or are eagerly pursuing citizenship
-Eliminate DHS completely
-Scrub and eliminate nonsense laws that eat up money or support federal jobs
-Eliminate support to the UN and other world organizations

Many many others but our so called leaders fear touching any proposals like this for fear of losing their jobs...term limits would settle that issues...

[Yarddawg]

I wont comment specifically to the plan, not having time to study it but I will say this...

IMHO ANY BURDEN PLACED ON THE TAXPAYERS IS CRAP AND GARBAGE...

Notice I say taxpayers...its not our fault the country is broke. Its the fault of those with checkbook in hand spending our money like drunken sailors. Why should we have to foot the bill. Let them cut social programs first. And cut my social security benefits...I dont think so. I've paid a crap load of money into the system and still do...thats my money. Cut social security for all the bums first...

Now having said all that, its really OUR fault because we've collectively sat around for years and let these so called elected leaders do as they please...

Here are some of my proposals:

-Eliminate the Department of Education completely
-Same for Department of Energy
-Same for all these government organizations for the "Arts"
-Eliminate all (ALL) foreign aid
-Do a complete scrub of the welfare system to include food stamps - ensure that only those who really need it get it
-Same for Social Security - if you didnt pay in your 40 quarters you dont get anything
-Eliminate all government programs supporting multi languages for non-English speakers
-Mandate a 10% cut across all government agencies excluding defense (they/we get picked on first every time - national defense is supported by the Constitution)
-Eliminate ALL government support or aid to resident non-citizens unless they serve in the military or are eagerly pursuing citizenship
-Eliminate DHS completely
-Scrub and eliminate nonsense laws that eat up money or support federal jobs
-Eliminate support to the UN and other world organizations

Many many others but our so called leaders fear touching any proposals like this for fear of losing their jobs...term limits would settle that issues...

+1

There is also talk of eliminating the mortgage interest deduction. Brilliant! Let's just call an official end of the American dream!

I seriously wonder just where these geniuses come from, and when they will pull their heads out of their orifices?

[VBshooter]

Now we get to see just how serious they are going to be ,,,,So far most of the suggestions are the same old song and dance crap. Hard decisions need to be made and the sooner the better.IMHO cutting the size of the Guv'ment by 50% would be a great start. This countries politicians waste so much money it should be a crime.

[Diomed]

-Do a complete scrub of the welfare system to include food stamps - ensure that only those who really need it get it
-Same for Social Security - if you didnt pay in your 40 quarters you dont get anything
-Mandate a 10% cut across all government agencies excluding defense (they/we get picked on first every time - national defense is supported by the Constitution)

This is why we are destined to bankruptcy as a country: we are unwilling to make the necessary cuts. Everything targeted for budget-cutting is a sideshow. Even welfare - it's miniscule in terms of the overall portion of the budget it consumes. Nevertheless, it needs to be completely eliminated. We simply can't afford it.

Social Security is a lost cause. Trying to fund it means robbing ourselves to pay ourselves. Wasteful.

And the military. A sacred cow if ever there was one. The military is a black hole for about half the budget last I heard. Why? Because we're trying to run an empire and be nice about it. Here's how it goes: either embrace it and force our vassal states, like Germany, Korea, Iraq and Japan to pay for it, or realize we can't afford to be everyone's bodyguard out of the goodness of our hearts and pocketbooks anymore and slash the budget. Huge amounts could be saved by pulling out of our foreign entanglements and cutting out the porktastic toys. We can't afford to have a vast standing army anymore. We just can't, and until the people wake up and realize that, the inescapable result is a bankrupt country.

Hell, it's probably already years too late, and even massive reductions in expenditures would just be delaying the inevitable.

[zephyp]

@Nah (Diomed) - having worked for DoD most of my adult life it is a target for cuts and has been increasingly over the past few years...yes there is some fat and waste as in all government organizations, however, DoD always gives up money...I watch other government organizations that manage social programs and have trouble finding the same. Look at how much is spent on defense compared to other programs...its a drop in the bucket...

[Kreutz]

@Nah (Diomed) - having worked for DoD most of my adult life it is a target for cuts and has been increasingly over the past few years...yes there is some fat and waste as in all government organizations, however, DoD always gives up money...I watch other government organizations that manage social programs and have trouble finding the same. Look at how much is spent on defense compared to other programs...its a drop in the bucket...

Ah, cut everything but where you work. Coincidentally your pet pig is the hungriest hog at the fair too. Gutting DoD is the first step towards fiscal solvency.

And I mean really gutting it into a small defensive military, which is what we've needed this entire time.

Look at how much is spent on defense compared to other programs...its a drop in the bucket...

You really didn't say that did you? Defense (from what precisely is never told, we are still equipping to fight the USSR on the plains of eastern Europe) is the damned bucket.

Same for Social Security - if you didnt pay in your 40 quarters you dont get anything

I'm going to go on a limb and just guess you somehow have exactly 40 quarters earned.

[CCFan]

I don't work for the DoD, but as far as I'm concerned, that's the only damn place the federal government should be spending my money. Not on government sponsored and supported cell phones, "shovel-ready" jobs, , welfare... it's ridiculous, and I'm tired of it. Is there waste in DoD spending? Sure. But I'd rather *know* that our men and women are ready to stand guard and protect us than *hope* they're ready.

I believe "User" said it in another thread - the Social Security program is a government sponsored Ponzi scheme... if you or I did that, we'd be locked up and thrown in jail. So, everyone hitch up their britches and take some responsibility for planning for their own future - it'll be a lot better world if everyone did instead of relying on the nanny-state government to take care of them.

[Taggure]

Just give me all the money that I have put into Social Security back and then shut it down!

OH WAIT you can't do that because it is not there.
Ok so just stop it all together.
Just let me invest my own (contribution) money instead of forcing me to send it off to the goverment and letting them steal it from me as it would do me better in my investments then in the goverments hands.

[zephyp]

@Nah (Diomed) - having worked for DoD most of my adult life it is a target for cuts and has been increasingly over the past few years...yes there is some fat and waste as in all government organizations, however, DoD always gives up money...I watch other government organizations that manage social programs and have trouble finding the same. Look at how much is spent on defense compared to other programs...its a drop in the bucket...

Ah, cut everything but where you work. Coincidentally your pet pig is the hungriest hog at the fair too. Gutting DoD is the first step towards fiscal solvency.

And I mean really gutting it into a small defensive military, which is what we've needed this entire time.

Look at how much is spent on defense compared to other programs...its a drop in the bucket...

You really didn't say that did you? Defense (from what precisely is never told, we are still equipping to fight the USSR on the plains of eastern Europe) is the damned bucket.

Same for Social Security - if you didnt pay in your 40 quarters you dont get anything

I'm going to go on a limb and just guess you somehow have exactly 40 quarters earned.

Bullcrap, garbage, etc, etc. I have way more than 40 quarters paid in btw.

I'll tell ya what. Why dont we just do away with DOD completely and put all that money in wheelbarrows so the progressives can just hand it out like candy.

Come see me after a country like China or NKorea stomps our butt...

Btw, were you actually born here? If so, I bet you're under 30...

[Kreutz]

Bullcrap, garbage, etc, etc.

"Bullcrap"? You literally just said every government program must be axed, except the one you very conveniently are employed in. A very typical Tea Party mentality, "Slash all spending-but dont touch my Medicare or Social Security!"

Screw the country, as long as you get your piece of it right? You might want to check the old family tree-I'll bet you have a public union employee in there somewhere lol .

I have way more than 40 quarters paid in btw.

If you had 21, you'd be demanding the minimum be 20.

I'll tell ya what. Why dont we just do away with DOD completely and put all that money in wheelbarrows so the progressives can just hand it out like candy.

I cant recall proposing that, I believe I proposed the sensible idea of a "small defensive army", you know, enough to secure our borders (which incidentally the bloated useless one does not, hmmm) and protect a few of our interests like embassies and such?

Come see me after a country like China or NKorea stomps our butt...

Oh my. How alarmist. The fearsome North Korean Navy invading our shores on their flotillas of their starved countrymen lashed together, while the fearsome Chinese (assuming they put down their cell phones and stopped texting each other) actually destroy their own capital investments in this country.

Yes, I propose we let DoD (and by extension you) consume 80% of our GDP, I'd happily pay that to prevent the above nightmare scenario from playing out.

Btw, were you actually born here? If so, I bet you're under 30...

No, I was born Socialisthippyfascistgaymarxistliberalstan, why? Does it show? Did my accent give me away?

And of course I'm under 30, I don't have the entitlement mentality the boomers have. I don't care if taxes are raised, because I actually give a damn about my country (America, the one I live in now, I hardly ever visit Socialisthippyfascistgaymarxistliberalstan anymore) and understand it costs money to tun a government. I also expect spending to be cut too. Like spending on DoD or other agencies that still think we live in 1968 and really only benefit a very small number of defense "contractors" (aka welfare recipients).

[zephyp]

@Kreutz - my apologies for dumping on you. I simply dont have the time to analyze long posts and respond intelligently to them. You're young as I once was. Btw, I'm only 51 and no boomer. Give it time and your attitude will change. My beef against cutting defense is its one of the very few parts of government actually sanctioned by the Constitution...and, the other departments are rarely targets for cuts. Do a little research and see where most of our money is spent -- not on defense by a long shot.

[gunderwood]

Perhaps everyone should take a timeout and actually learn what is in the 2011 budget? DoD half? Hardly. SS a drop in the bucket? Nope.

Here is a graphic if you have a hard time understanding millions vs billions vs trillions.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010 ... udget.html

[gunderwood]

In case pictures aren't your thing, here are percentages.

National Defense 20%
Social Security 20%
Medicare 13%
Health 10%
Income Security 15%
Net Interest 7%
Other 14%


The problem with ND spending is that we have been building/funding an empire, but are unwilling to admit it. At least other empires had the good sense to admit it and make others pay for most of it. ND spending needs redefined. There are valid missions, playing world nanny isn't one of them IMHO.

The problem with SS is that it is a Ponzi scheme and can not work. i.e. the assumptions it is based on a false. Wake up! There is no SS money. Every last penny has already been spent. SS payments are coming out of the general fund. Yes, we all have paid into it (some more than others), but they already spent it on everything else. The only way SS stays around is if your children pay taxes for you. You may be fine with robbing your childrens' future so you can retire and play golf in FL, but I am not. Medicare isn't far behind. Both must change.

Government shouldn't be involved in my health care period. Don't forget who created the HMOs and PPOs in the first place. It too must go.

The virtually perpetual benefits for the unemployed is crazy. Just look at how much it costs. We use to set aside monies for temporary changes in our employment. Now we spend till we are broke because the government is there...which has caused other problems. Moral hazard anyone?

7% interest payments is also insane. The debt must be reduced, our money must be made sound.

Some of the 14% other could go, but those programs are a drop in the bucket. Some of them should be eliminated because they bring little to no value, but there is a far more important reason to reduce them: liberty. We don't need a Department of education, let the localities (States/Counties) determine what they want for their children. If they want large public schools let them. If they want private education let them.

Two things must be realized.

First, having other people pay for your services has got to go. If the service is that important to you, pay for it.

Second, this is not a discussion about what services will get cut, we are discussing the very existence of our republic. ND doesn't matter if there is no nation to defend. If the nation fails, all of these services go away...far better is it to significantly cut all of them. We are creditors to a bankrupt corporation and as such some return of our investment is better than none. Get over it!

[Kreutz]

@Kreutz - my apologies for dumping on you.

Nothing personal.

I simply dont have the time to analyze long posts and respond intelligently to them. You're young as I once was.

Eh, I have to read and type very fast as part of my business, so I forget I can run on a bit. Sadly this post is gonna do that too.

Btw, I'm only 51 and no boomer.

Close though

Give it time and your attitude will change. My beef against cutting defense is its one of the very few parts of government actually sanctioned by the Constitution...and, the other departments are rarely targets for cuts.

I think we need to radically rethink our role in the world and current military realities; NONE of which warrant the size and scope of the force we have now. Even Air Force generals are saying "Kill some of our projects", of course the Senators in whose states these useless toys are made keep forcing them into the budget.

Its also worth noting the defense budget is largely iscretionary.

Do a little research and see where most of our money is spent -- not on defense by a long shot.

I have literally yet to see any statistic or information to state defense is not the largest expense in our nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_b ... n_for_2011

DoD is getting $721.3 billion dollars for 2011-thats just one year. Total spending (Veterans Administration, pensions, etc) in defense is 1.003-1.233 trillion this year.

The direct DoD spending eats 28% of our tax dollars, when you factor in the total defense spending its 38-44%. Thats a bit over 40 cents on every dollar we pay in tax goes right to defense. Thats nuts!

[gunderwood]

DoD is getting $721.3 billion dollars for 2011-thats just one year. Total spending (Veterans Administration, pensions, etc) in defense is 1.003-1.233 trillion this year.

The direct DoD spending eats 28% of our tax dollars, when you factor in the total defense spending its 38-44%. Thats a bit over 40 cents on every dollar we pay in tax goes right to defense. Thats nuts!

That accounts for every possible dime spent on anything related to defense. I can play the same game by binning welfare:

SS: $738B
Medicare: $498B
Income Security: $567B
Health: $381B

There are others, but just the big four account for $2.184T, which is nearly double your defense spending. That's even more nuts!

Edit: Your numbers are only looking at taxes collected rather than the whole budget to get those percentages. The total budget is more like $3.69T give or take which makes $1.233T 33% of the budget and my $2.184T 59% of the budget. Both are way to large.

[CCFan]

That accounts for every possible dime spent on anything related to defense. I can play the same game by binning welfare:

SS: $738B
Medicare: $498B
Income Security: $567B
Health: $381B

There are others, but just the big four account for $2.184T, which is nearly double your defense spending. That's even more nuts!

Wait - aren't those all social programs? Isn't that the definition of socialism? Take my money and distribute it to everyone else?

[zephyp]

@Kreutz - hate to break it to you but around 60% of our taxes go just to pay the interest on debt. That plus your 40% only leaves 0%, but wait!!!

You're not considering all of the money we borrow...when you add all that in and run the numbers defense is number 3 or 4 on the list...social programs make the top cut.

Progressives will tell you that 40% of your taxes go to defense...thats a partial truth...you have to consider the total budget - MOST of which is borrowed. Income taxes make up only a fraction of the total budget and around 60% of that goes just to pay the interest on outstanding debt....

[Kreutz]

@Kreutz - hate to break it to you but around 60% of our taxes go just to pay the interest on debt. That plus your 40% only leaves 0%, but wait!!!

You're not considering all of the money we borrow...when you add all that in and run the numbers defense is number 3 or 4 on the list...social programs make the top cut.

Progressives will tell you that 40% of your taxes go to defense...thats a partial truth...you have to consider the total budget - MOST of which is borrowed. Income taxes make up only a fraction of the total budget and around 60% of that goes just to pay the interest on outstanding debt....

Yeah, I forgot to rave about the interest we pay, my bad. The elephant in the living room. We should pay damn near no interest for what is (was?) such a safe investment.
Unless someone can reanimate the corpse of Old Hickory and put him in charge (armed with an actual hickory stick to mercilessly beat Congressmen and Senators of course), the debt and deficits aren't going anywhere.

[gunderwood]

@Kreutz - hate to break it to you but around 60% of our taxes go just to pay the interest on debt. That plus your 40% only leaves 0%, but wait!!!

You're not considering all of the money we borrow...when you add all that in and run the numbers defense is number 3 or 4 on the list...social programs make the top cut.

Progressives will tell you that 40% of your taxes go to defense...thats a partial truth...you have to consider the total budget - MOST of which is borrowed. Income taxes make up only a fraction of the total budget and around 60% of that goes just to pay the interest on outstanding debt....

Yeah, I forgot to rave about the interest we pay, my bad. The elephant in the living room. We should pay damn near no interest for what is (was?) such a safe investment.
Unless someone can reanimate the corpse of Old Hickory and put him in charge (armed with an actual hickory stick to mercilessly beat Congressmen and Senators of course), the debt and deficits aren't going anywhere.

The interest for 2009 was approx. $187B of a $3.5T budget and collected taxes were $2.1T. That makes interest 5.3% and 8.9% respectively. For 2010, the interest is estimated at $188B with a total budget of $3.7T and collected taxes at $2.16T. That makes interest 5.0% and 8.7% respectively. For 2011, the interest is estimated to balloon to $250B with a budget of $3.8T and collected taxes of $2.57T. That makes interest 6.6% and 9.7% respectively. The 2011 estimates are based on the increasing debt and the assumption that collected taxes will rebound with the economy and the increased tax rates (if the "cuts" are not extended). I think they are being optimistic about real growth. Of course they will make real growth look much better by way under-counting inflation, but that is a different story.

The point is that the interest on the debt is no where near 60% of the budget or collected taxes. It is way to high and we have too much debt, but if the interest accounted for 60% we'd be sunk economically (unless the Federal government and taxes were cut so drastically that the budget/collected taxes were only $400-425B...good luck with that one).