Privately selling handguns...really that simple?

[YuDanJa]

I've never sold a gun privately. But from what I can tell, it seems like a very simple process...no FFL required.

Basically, if the person I'm selling to can prove he is a VA resident (drivers license and a voter registration card, for example), I simply take his money, and he takes my gun. Of course, we'll fill out a bill of sale with the gun info and his and my address and sign/date.

Is that all it takes?

[gunderwood]

The law requires that you sell only to a resident of your state who is at least 18 years of age and you have no reason to believe can not legally own the firearm. No bill of sale is required.

What you do and require above and beyond that is your business. The point of a private sale is that this is your property and you may dispose of it as you choose. The Feds have no power to regulate personal transactions between two residents of the same state.

[zephyp]

You are correct in that no FFL is required...and since its a private transaction you and the other person can agree or not on things above what gunderwood pointed out.

I recommend you swap 2 valid IDs and consider a bill of sale. That way if your old gun winds up on the streets of Chicago and is recovered in a crime you have proof it was transferred to someone else. You cant run a BC but you can apply a little diligence and common sense.

[gunderwood]

You are correct in that no FFL is required...and since its a private transaction you and the other person can agree or not on things above what gunderwood pointed out.

I recommend you swap 2 valid IDs and consider a bill of sale. That way if your old gun winds up on the streets of Chicago and is recovered in a crime you have proof it was transferred to someone else. You cant run a BC but you can apply a little diligence and common sense.

Or you could refuse to keep the governments paperwork for them. Do you still have a BOS for everything else you have sold in your life? Didn't think so.

If I lawfully sell my car and someone decides to run drugs in it, it isn't my fault. Who knows how many more times that gun was sold before it was used in a crime. The problem with BOS is they are pushing us towards defacto gun registration.

If I can't buy/sell a gun without a government dealer (FFL) or I have to keep detailed paperwork like a FFL, then we have gun registration.

Anyone have a court case where a lawful private sale caused the seller an issue because they didn't have a BOS?


Edit: It is like OC. You may not like it, but if people don't exercise their rights, we will lose them. Being able to CC and not worry about a felony charge because your shirt got snagged or a small part of the gun showed when you stretched out is a huge benefit of OC.

[YuDanJa]

Thanks for the input. It's good to know it is that simple and without hassle.
I understand a bill of sale is not a requirement, but I think I'd still opt for one. To me it'd be a matter of a convenience if anything were to come up; a quick way to get anyone off my back, rather than going back and forth with all the "he said, she said". I believe anything in writing holds much heavier than "giving his word" in any situation.
But, hey, that's just me... I've had many strange things happen in my life. Copies of receipts, contracts, emails, audio/video, etc. have always been the "BAM!" that closes the arguments.

[zephyp]

@Garrett - IMO a BOS for a HG isnt keeping the governments paperwork for them...its a simple CYA and not a bad idea considering the BS in the world of guns and laws...as a side note I dont push a BOS either...if the other party wants one fine with me...

[OakRidgeStars]

Here's a handy-dandy form to give both parties a little CYA...

[VBshooter]

I'm with gunderwood on this one...What private citizens do in any business transaction is none of the Guv'ments business. They should have nothing to do with what one does with their private property. I do understand that some feel a CYA is in order and have no issue with that if it makes them feel better about the sale.

[gunderwood]

@OakRidgeStars and Zephyp

What do you need to CYA against exactly? Any case law? Any news reports? Anything to support the need for "CYA" or is it just perceived CYA? If you followed all laws, what does going above and beyond provide you with that simply following the law did not? I'll admit there is a perception of added protection, but I have found no instance of it actually protecting the seller above and beyond what simply following the law would have provided. The problem with BOS is if we let it become the norm we face one of two possibilities:

1. We are required to only deal through a FFL. I.e. no more private transfers because if the BOS is required, why not standardized it through an FFL?

2. We are required to keep a BOS just like our tax receipts and you can be sure the penalties for a missing BOS or a typo will be steep.

Just like the OC example, the very fact this is legal (as it should be for all private property) protects you far more than any piece of paper you draft up. If you want a BOS to provide anything it must be notarized and/or signed by third party witnesses. If it isn't, it proves nothing in your hypothetical situation.

In fact, lets assume the BOS has a typo. Couldn't an aggressive prosecutor use that as prima facie evidence you didn't properly verify the legal requirements before selling? You claim to have seen a VA DL and CHP, but the numbers you wrote down are wrong so clearly you didn't verify the residency and legal status of the buyer as you should have. I.e. the BOS can be construed as evidence you are lying about a "illegal" transfer.

[OakRidgeStars]

If I knew ahead of time what could go wrong, I wouldn't need the form.

But I don't. So I do.

[zephyp]

@Garrett - please explain to me just how difficult it is to print and swap a BOS...not very...and again I dont use them, but...it hurts absolutely nothing...a little tangent...many many years ago I had an old jalopy...I sold it...it was later used in a crime in southern AZ...I woke up one night to pounding on my door...AZ state police had me as the last owner...the state apparatus screwed up somewhere along the line...fortunately I had a record of selling it to someone else...I never knew what happened nor cared...only that I could sleep soundly knowing I had proof it was no longer owned by me...

EDIT: Bottom line...yes we can protest federal and state requirements all day long...go for it...BUT...I HAVE THE CHOICE HERE TO DEMAND A BOS...there is no federal or state requirement...and its for me...no one else...you, Garrett, are essentially playing the Federal game by complying explicitly with the law...may not seem that way to you but think about it...next time you privately sell a weapon, defy Federal and State law...demand not only a BOS, but a blood sample too...

[gunderwood]

@Garrett - please explain to me just how difficult it is to print and swap a BOS...not very...and again I dont use them, but...it hurts absolutely nothing...a little tangent...many many years ago I had an old jalopy...I sold it...it was later used in a crime in southern AZ...I woke up one night to pounding on my door...AZ state police had me as the last owner...the state apparatus screwed up somewhere along the line...fortunately I had a record of selling it to someone else...I never knew what happened nor cared...only that I could sleep soundly knowing I had proof it was no longer owned by me...

EDIT: Bottom line...yes we can protest federal and state requirements all day long...go for it...BUT...I HAVE THE CHOICE HERE TO DEMAND A BOS...there is no federal or state requirement...and its for me...no one else...you, Garrett, are essentially playing the Federal game by complying explicitly with the law...may not seem that way to you but think about it...next time you privately sell a weapon, defy Federal and State law...demand not only a BOS, but a blood sample too...

It isn't that it is difficult, but that it it practically worthless in court at best. At worst it is voluntary gun registration. It isn't proof of anything if it isn't notarized and/or signed by a witness.

The AZ state police could have taken you in regardless of your BOS. They choose not too and I'd bet they had other information that lead them to believe it wasn't you despite the BOS. If all they had was a piece of paper from you, they would have taken you in. They likely had a description of the suspect, etc. that confirmed what the BOS said.

I'm not saying you or anyone can't use them, I'm simply pushing back on the idea they do any good. Those that push them generally have the false impression they are binding legal documents rather than worth next to nothing in a court of law. Anyone can draft up a fake BOS and with identity theft being what it is, it is practically trivial. No one who has been able to provide me any instance of what a BOS for a firearm represents in court and what extra legal protection it provides. They presume that their piece of paper is worth something, when in general it might as well be a napkin. A BOS won't keep you from being dragged downtown unless it confirms something else they already know.

If I'm wrong, please point me to some case law.

[gunderwood]

Grammar not so hot in the previous post. That aside...

In a criminal case, the BOS is not strong enough to cast doubt on other evidence, nor is it strong enough to rule you out as a suspect. If there is other evidence connecting you to the crime, I don't think any prosecutor will blink twice over a BOS unless it is backed up by an official third party (notary). It simply is too easy to forge and has insufficient legal standing between you and the State.

The standard of proof is probably lower in civil suits than criminal.

[gunderwood]

Not applicable to firearms, but concerning possible criminal/legal protection from a BOS. Here is a section of code concerning the purchase of certain raw materials which may have been stolen. It specifically states the requirements for that type of BOS to be legal.

§ 59.1-126. Receipt or bill of sale to be taken by buyer.

Any person buying, at public or private sale, any such secondhand articles as are mentioned in § 59.1-125, except those excepted in said section, shall take from the seller a properly dated written receipt or bill of sale signed by such seller which shall therein state specifically the seller's address, business, social security number, vehicle license number, and place of residence. If a seller of such articles be not personally known to the buyer or if the seller be unable to write his name, such seller shall produce an adult witness personally known to the buyer to identify the seller and also to sign such receipt or bill of sale as witness, the latter also stating therein his full name, occupation and place of residence. Such receipt or bill of sale shall specifically set forth, by accurate description giving the character, kind, quality, weight, length or size, and other detailed description sufficient to accurately identify the same, each of such articles so purchased and shall be retained by the buyer at his place of business for a period of six months after such purchase.

(Code 1950, § 59-154; 1958, c. 614; 1968, c. 439.)

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... d+59.1-126

Since there is no VA law requiring a BOS for firearms, that is the closest I could find concerning protection from a possible criminal case. The standards are far higher than any BOS I've seen recommended for firearms.

[grumpyMSG]

§ 59.1-126. Receipt or bill of sale to be taken by buyer.

Any person buying, at public or private sale, any such secondhand articles as are mentioned in § 59.1-125

§ 59.1-125 is the selling of scrap metal, and my firearms aren't scrap metal!

[zephyp]

@Garrett, yes any document can be forged but in the scenario I described it was far better for me to have something in hand (even if it could be proven rightfully or wrongfully that is was forged) than nothing at all...

[gunderwood]

§ 59.1-126. Receipt or bill of sale to be taken by buyer.

Any person buying, at public or private sale, any such secondhand articles as are mentioned in § 59.1-125

§ 59.1-125 is the selling of scrap metal, and my firearms aren't scrap metal!

Yes, but the code exists because of the high rate of stolen "scrap" metal from power lines and such. It is the only thing I could find about a BOS, requirements for that BOS, in VA statue concerning criminally associated property and a BOS.

BOS have been used for civil property right transfers for some time. Generally they provide some level of protection for the buyer against the seller still claiming ownership and for the seller if payment is not made in full during the physical transfer. The BOS being suggested do not have sufficient information in them to protect against all of those sort of claims. They are missing all kinds of things like a statement of condition, warranty, payment, etc. If you really are looking for civil protection, then your BOS needs more in it to cover all the bases. Also, get it signed by a third party.

However, that isn't what the BOS is being pushed for. It is being suggested to provide additional criminal protection against a potential misuse of the firearm by future owners. That is a different argument altogether and one I can find no supported case law or statue for. In other states where handgun registration is required, a BOS must be kept, permit numbers recorded on it and that information provided to the State. In such a case the BOS is essentially being "notarized" by a official third party, the State agency.

If you want a BOS for civil purposes, fine, that is your call. If you think you need legal protection from future misuse of the firearm you should not be doing a private sale, you should transfer it through an FFL. That is the only surefire way to provide you with criminal legal protection.

[gunderwood]

@Garrett, yes any document can be forged but in the scenario I described it was far better for me to have something in hand (even if it could be proven rightfully or wrongfully that is was forged) than nothing at all...

That is your perception of it, but the challenge is to show me where the law agrees with your assertion. If someone can show me in the case law where a BOS provided genuine legal protection against the future criminal misuse of a firearm, then I'll back off. Until then, the legal protection from a BOS is a myth and if you really think you need that for any sale, go through an FFL.

If you want criminal protection, go through an FFL. If you want some civil protection, a proper BOS is a good route, but those being passed around the Internet are often lacking. Trusting a non-witnessed/non-notarized BOS for criminal protection and suggesting to others that it provides such, without any supporting case law, can be a real harm to them. Until someone can show me that, I can't in good conscience recommend a BOS for anything other then basic civil protection. It can't be said more strongly, if you want criminal protection, use the FFL.

[Jim]

I've sold quite a few long guns through the paper over the years. I always require the buyer to bring a photocopy of D/L and show original D/L at time of purchase. Some have not responded when told that. Hmmm.
I've sold a coupla' sidearms, but ONLY to people I've known for some time and/or LEOs.
That's just my personal policy.

[gunderwood]

I've sold quite a few long guns through the paper over the years. I always require the buyer to bring a photocopy of D/L and show original D/L at time of purchase. Some have not responded when told that. Hmmm.
I've sold a coupla' sidearms, but ONLY to people I've known for some time and/or LEOs.
That's just my personal policy.

I wouldn't provide you a photocopy of my DL. Identity theft is way to simple.