selling a gun to a migrant worker?

[GS78]

ok, this is the scenario;


You are selling a gun from your private collection, and the buyer who is obviously not from the states, wants to buy it, he has a valid Virginia I.D.


...can you legally make the sale or are you obligated to find out his status (as far as immigration)?

[gunderwood]

AFAIK, VA doesn't issue DL to anyone who can't buy a firearm. Even an FFL transfer has the necessary sections to permit lawful non-citizens to purchase a firearm.

[GS78]

yeah, I did'nt know3 if a "guest" worker with a visa , even temporary could get a VA I.D., but still be a temporary resident? and then leave me in the limbo with johnny law......

[wally626]

The site: http://www.vrolyk.org/guns/alien-laws.html has some useful information on aliens gun possession.

[Diomed]

As a non-FFL, your responsibility is to sell only to persons who are residents of your state, and who you do not have cause to believe are prohibited persons.

An illegal alien would be a prohibited person.

I don't know what the requirements are to get a VA ID card (not a driver's license), but I do know the VSP strongly discourages FFLs from accepting them for firearms transactions.

[Reverenddel]

If he has a legitimate id, and a social security card that says "Valid for Work Only"... You're good.

He has a W-8 on file with State dept, and is a registered alien. Which are allowed to own handguns, and certain long guns, but NO MSSA (Military Styled Semi-Autos).

[CowboyT]

I wouldn't do it unless I could see both a green card and a Virginia driver's license. If he doesn't have a green card, he's not a legal resident alien. It ain't worth a felony rap. I'd also get a bill of sale written up, just for CYA purposes.

[Virginia2AM]

I am now a citizen, but I came to the States in May 2001 and always resided legally in Virginia - first on employment visa (a bit different than Work Permit; mine needed to be renewed and supported every 3 years and had a potential for immigrating permanently), then on green card (based on marriage).

I can tell you that I obtained non-driver Virginia ID card as soon as I had a residence address and a SSN - no more than a week into my being in this country.

SSN - it was the first official business I did in the States. I had to have it pretty soon. I started to work within 48 hours of my arrival so the accounting people needed the SSN for my first pay check. I went to SS Administration the first week I was on the job, and they issued me SSN based on my legal papers confirming employment and various evidence from Immigration authorities -- that showed that I was in the country legally.

SS Administration website clearly states that for an adult non-citizen you have to have a right to work in order to get a SSN and have the documents to prove:

Immigration status;
Work eligibility;
Age; and
Identity.

After you get SSN, you can then go to DMV to get non-driver ID card. So that's what your 'potential buyer' probably did.

That being said, I dont believe I had a right to purchase a hand gun for myself or carry any firearms until I had a green card. I would not sell it to a non-resident. Financial benefit of selling is not worth the obvious and clear risk you are getting yourself into. Work permit is NOT a permanent residence (green card). Work permits are for 1-2 years and they give you less rights than green card status.

[CowboyT]

Thanks for the heads-up on this. Having actually gone through the process, you'd know better than most.

And I love the fact that you are now a citizen of this country. You, Madame, are a true American.

[Riana]

Bottom line on this, all laws aside, is that if you are not comfortable with the transaction, FOR ANY REASON, don't do it.

I believe for a green card holder to purchase a firearm, they have to have the normal 2 IDs, plus 90 days worth of utility bills to prove residence, plus a hunting license. It's not something we do often, so I'm a bit rusty on it.

[Pocono]

Bottom line on this, all laws aside, is that if you are not comfortable with the transaction, FOR ANY REASON, don't do it.

+1

[Virginia2AM]

"..for a green card holder to purchase a firearm, they have to have the normal 2 IDs, plus 90 days worth of utility bills to prove residence, plus a hunting license. "

No need for hunting license (I know I never had one) or conceal carry license or any other license. VA law stands as it is - if you have the right to purchase, you can purchase, no need to have any license to purchase. All others are correct - you have to present them at the place of purchase to a dealer. In my case, I just wanted to confirm that the system of law works -- that I would not be denied a right to purchase a handgun few days after obtaining my green card. But it was a long wait, I think they went to Interpol across the ocean and back.

The person-to-person transaction should not be subject to dealer's license requirements. That's private matter. But, you the seller are the ultimate decider.

[Vahunter]

AFAIK, VA doesn't issue DL to anyone who can't buy a firearm.

Sure they do. I can think of at least a half dozen or so that work for the same company I do. One even works for me.

[gunderwood]

AFAIK, VA doesn't issue DL to anyone who can't buy a firearm.

Sure they do. I can think of at least a half dozen or so that work for the same company I do. One even works for me.

VA doesn't issue DL to illegals like Maryland. ID cards are different. Who do you work with that has a DL that can't buy a gun? A fake one perhaps, an ID card sure, but an actual DL?

[Virginia2AM]

I had a Va Driver License before I was green card holder. Before that I had non-driver ID -- but that is just because I did not know how to drive and did not take the DRIVING test. But I needed an ID document - U.S. issued, as opposed to my home-country passport or home-country driver's license. One of the reasons was that a U.S. bank would not open an account without a US-issued ID. And again, I needed an account to get my salary deposited. So I had to have an ID, but I did not take driver's test. But if I wanted, and took the test, they would have given me Driver License while I was here on employment visa and did not care how long I lived in the State - week or two or month.

[gunderwood]

I had a Va Driver License before I was green card holder. Before that I had non-driver ID -- but that is just because I did not know how to drive and did not take the DRIVING test. But I needed an ID document - U.S. issued, as opposed to my home-country passport or home-country driver's license. One of the reasons was that a U.S. bank would not open an account without a US-issued ID. And again, I needed an account to get my salary deposited. So I had to have an ID, but I did not take driver's test. But if I wanted, and took the test, they would have given me Driver License while I was here on employment visa and did not care how long I lived in the State - week or two or month.

With an employment visa you were a legal non-immigrant alien and would be permited to own firarms with a valid hunting license or other permit. Straight from the US code:

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

(5) who, being an alien -
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));

(2) Exceptions. - Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and
(s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that alien is -
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States;

Again, VA only issues DL to those legally in the US unlike some other states. Immigrant aliens are allowed to own firearms just like anyone else, non-immigrant aliens are required to have a permit or hunting license. VA only adds two restrictions over federal law and that is assualt weapons and no CC permit for non-immigrant aliens.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... 2-308.2C01

§ 18.2-308.2:01. Possession or transportation of certain firearms by certain persons.

A. It shall be unlawful for any person who is not a citizen of the United States or who is not a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence to knowingly and intentionally possess or transport any assault firearm or to knowingly and intentionally carry about his person, hidden from common observation, an assault firearm.

B. It shall be unlawful for any person who is not a citizen of the United States and who is not lawfully present in the United States to knowingly and intentionally possess or transport any firearm or to knowingly and intentionally carry about his person, hidden from common observation, any firearm. A violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony.

C. For purposes of this section, "assault firearm" means any semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock.

So if someone has a VA DL they are able to purchase any firearm in a private sale if they meet the other conditions, just like everyone else (not being a felon, etc.) If they are a non-immigrant alien they are restricted to buying non-assault weapons and must have a hunting permit or CC from another state that VA recognizes (the permit requirement is federal law...VA law just excludes the issuing of a CC permit to a non-immigrant alien).

In short, if someone has a VA DL they meet the resident requirement and you must only make sure they are not disqualified by being a felon, restraining order, drugs, assult weapon to a non-immigrant alien or any firearm to one without a permit of some sort, etc. like you would for any other sale. Generally, we sum this up as "is there any reason you may not purchase or possess this firarm in the US/VA?"

Edit: INAL, but the codes seems very straight forward to me.

[Vahunter]

AFAIK, VA doesn't issue DL to anyone who can't buy a firearm.

Sure they do. I can think of at least a half dozen or so that work for the same company I do. One even works for me.

VA doesn't issue DL to illegals like Maryland. ID cards are different. Who do you work with that has a DL that can't buy a gun? A fake one perhaps, an ID card sure, but an actual DL?

I work with felons, they can drive but can't buy a gun. I see now you meant illegals.

[gunderwood]

I work with felons, they can drive but can't buy a gun. I see now you meant illegals.

Ah, I see the miscommunication now. When I said VA doesn't hand out DL to anyone who can't buy a gun in a private sale, I was refering just to the residency requirement. Of course you have to ask about being a felon, etc., but you have to take their word for it.

[GS78]

I work with felons, they can drive but can't buy a gun. I see now you meant illegals.

Ah, I see the miscommunication now. When I said VA doesn't hand out DL to anyone who can't buy a gun in a private sale, I was refering just to the residency requirement. Of course you have to ask about being a felon, etc., but you have to take their word for it.

Thanks, and strictly speaking that is the only concern I have. I am not a fan of any gun laws, and am only concerned with the "residency" issues.