Home Defense Shotgun Ammo

[gunderwood]

I'm assuming a lot of you use or have a shotgun at home for defense. I've been working on upgrades for mine and was curious what ammo everyone uses, so I thought I would share mine.

I load mine up a little different for sure. Here is my thinking on shotgun ammo.

Bird shot is a liability. If you can legally shoot someone in self defense why handicap yourself? Bird shot will mess you up, but it likely won't penetrate to vitals on an adult. Also, I've built replica walls (no insulation) and bird shot easily penetrates several layers of drywall. So while it is better an a 9mm for over penetration concerns, it doesn't magically stop in one wall. For self defense I think bird shot is useless. Tell me one LEA who issues bird shot for their tactical entry scatter guns?

Buck shot is better, but only if you don't have to shot through a wall. Harden shot like tactical loads use helps considerably. I like 00 buck. At the distances we are talking about for self defense, buck shot doesn't spread out much at all. Use a good 00 buck tactical load and you doing pretty well. However, I rarely see testing after it penetrates a wall or something. Here is an example of one of the better hardened 00 buck loads from federal: http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gaugeFBITest32.html

Good, but I prefer low recoil slugs.

There is no spread to help a poorly aimed shot, but at any distance inside my house nothing but bird shot will show any real spread. Besides, I want to hit what I aim at and I want all of that force concentrated there, not spread across the room. Traditional slug loads have too much recoil IMO to use a pump 12ga effectively. Especially if the wife has to use it. I prefer the Federal Tactical 2-3/4" low recoil slugs (LE127RS). Here is what they do to gel: http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gaugeFedTacSlug.html A 1oz (437gr) hollow point slug at 1300fps is plenty! The hydroshock slugs are very soft to limit over penetration and expand. It really is amazing how much lower recoil the tactical LR slugs are, but you don't give up much performance. I have 1 in the chamber, 8 in the tube and 6 on the frame.

However, I never want to have my shotgun and wish I had brought a rifle.

Thus, I keep 4 for these in the butt stock: Brenneke Black Magic Magnum 12ga 3" slugs (SL-123BMM). 1-3/8oz (601gr) hardened slug at 1500fps!!! These are bear loads. They are designed to shoot through a bears shoulder and take it down.

One of the heaviest slugs on the market, the Black Magic Magnum is devastating on the biggest, toughest prey. It is so powerful that it is often the choice of professional guides in Alaska and Africa to back up their clients when hunting dangerous game.

I've heard of LE keeping these or similar slugs around for when they need to punch through a barrier. They don't expand, but will still do a lot of damage. Here is a link a very similar low recoil tactical load from the same company. They only difference is that that slug is only 1oz (437gr) vs my 1-3/8oz (600gr) and 1375fps vice 1500fps. Since it doesn't expand, gel damage will be very similar...mine will just do it after penetrating a 4x4 or engine block. http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/l_tactic ... fense.html

[grumpyMSG]

There is a website that does a fairly good job of scientifically testing penetration of various ammuntion. It is:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm
They have tested penetration of multiple spaced sheets of drywall by various handgun, shotgun and rifle rounds. They also tested some other common myths like dimes and rock salt in shotgun shells.
I do know a Police Officer here in Virginia who had the misfortune of being shot with birdshot #7s or 8s, I think he said. Thank goodness he wore glasses because it hit him in the face, it did break skin and several pellets managed t get up under his scalp and had to be removed by outpatient surgery. Thank goodness it was only birdshot, if it had been buckshot, there would have been a funeral. The perpetrator was shot and arrested and is now a guest of the Corrections System.

[gunderwood]

I've seen the box of truth before. Good info, but like everything you have to take it with a grain of salt. Gel, water jugs, etc. only approximate the human body.

[Vahunter]

While I wouldn't use birdshot for selfdefense either I have to disagree about penetrating human vitals. Iv'e killed deer at 20 yards with #6's when that was the only shells I had at the time. Penetration to the lungs for a quick kill. Given the thickness of a deer hide plus their ability to absorb a lot of energy which is much better than a human, a dose of "6's at a home defense range ( say 20 feet or less) should leave a nasty hole and anchor the threat on the spot. But like I said I'll pass on the birdshot for both deer and selfdefense in favor of a good stout load of BB's.

[Chasbo00]

Here's Remington's home defense shell offering:

http://www.remington.com/products/ammun ... loads.aspx

I'm old school and will stick with 00 Buck (I might go with #1 Buck if I could find it hardened though).

[gunderwood]

While I wouldn't use birdshot for selfdefense either I have to disagree about penetrating human vitals. Iv'e killed deer at 20 yards with #6's when that was the only shells I had at the time. Penetration to the lungs for a quick kill. Given the thickness of a deer hide plus their ability to absorb a lot of energy which is much better than a human, a dose of "6's at a home defense range ( say 20 feet or less) should leave a nasty hole and anchor the threat on the spot. But like I said I'll pass on the birdshot for both deer and selfdefense in favor of a good stout load of BB's.

With good shot placement, you can kill just about anything with a .22lr. The problem with bird shot is that it doesn't consistently penetrate deep enough. Weird things happen outside of a lab. I've heard of .38 specials getting "stuck" in ribs and not penetrating. There was even one incident where a LEO was killed after hitting an attacker center of mass with a 12ga slug. The guy lived long enough to take the cops gun, kill him with it, and then died 20ft away. Heart was utterly destroyed too; it was not a bad shot. Certainly there have been tragic accidents with bird shot and it did penetrate to vitals. Never underestimate the power of even an pellet gun.

Whenever we have these sorts of discussions we are not talking in absolutes, but rather probabilities.

[Palladin]

#4 buck - reason- lots of 'em and they're bigger than BBs.

here's a low velocity offering w/27 pellets-

http://www.securityprousa.com/4bushtaenga.html


But I like the idea of a spicy 41 pellet serving...

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=810358

[Diomed]

But I like the idea of a spicy 41 pellet serving...

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=810358

Well hello! I think I'd like to try that in some of my shorties...

[zephyp]

000 buck for me please...I want them to go down...

[acguy45]

The best of both worlds,a buck an ball load. J&G has these. I have used them out of a mossberg 500 and they pattern pretty good @ 15-20 yds .
12ga Multi-defense shotshells, 2.75" shells with one .65 caliber lead ball, and six #1buck pellets. 1300 fps velocity.

[gunderwood]

The buck and ball looks very interesting. What is the weight of the slug? I seen buck and ball loads before, but I'm not really sure what advantage they would have over a newer HP slug. Before expanding slugs, it made sense that the buckshot would not penetrate as deep, but would spread out in the last couple inches of penetration. This would give you the deep penetration of a slug, but an expanded wound channel too.

I'm splitting hairs here as 000 and 00 buck have great reputations of stopping a threat, but every gel test I see (yes, it is lab testing) the HP slugs show massive increases in damage over buckshot. Buckshot vs a standard slug is about the same with the slug having better penetration and buckshot having a slight wound diameter advantage.

Slug: 18+ inches of penetration and at least a 0.65" cavity.
Buckshot (00): 9-14" of penetration and approx 1" entry hole and expands to 2-3" very late in the penetration.

The key here is that the buckshot is very round and at this size is approx. the same diameter as 32-9mm pistol ammo. I find that the impact velocity is higher, but the shape and size are approx. equal. It is well known that 9mm FMJ is a poor stopper because the shape just pushes a lot of tissue out of the way and doesn't crush it (crushes some, but less then you would expect). The tissue velocity is too low to cause much more than bruising (for the pushed aside tissue, not the crushed). HP solve this problem by expanding or even providing a better shape that crushes more tissue (despite the caliber not changing) if they don't expand.

A 45cal FMJ bullet tends to do much better (and the street stats back this up) and not just because of the increased vital hit probability due to the frontal area being larger. A slug does something similar. It is so large that even at lower velocities and no expansion, the amount of tissue that must be moved aside and the velocity it must move causes the round to crush a lot more tissue. Shape can help too.

So, my question is, since buckshot is approx. equal to a bunch of poor shaped and small diameter projectiles, like the 32-9mm FMJ, shouldn't the actual buckshot wound channel crush a lot less tissue than you expect? I think buckshot works so well not because of the spread during flight, but those last couple inches of penetration (which is in the vitals) buckshot spreads out significantly. While each wound channel is smaller and didn't crush a lot of tissue (relatively) it did create a bunch of them.

Also, police tactical loads have been pushing for tighter groups (less flight spread). I think this is because of the limited penetration of buckshot after it spreads out a bunch during flight (longer ranges). A single buckshot won't penetration nearly as deep as 9 of the entering in the same place. I.e. the entrance wound is bigger, but energy was wasted and spread out too much.

With those HP slugs I use, I get a wound diameter similar to buckshot at the end of its penetration (where it is biggest), but it starts after the first inch or two and doesn't end until 10-12". After 10-12", the cavity collapse to approx. the size of the expanding slug (1"). Also, it isn't a bunch of spread out holes with undamaged tissue between them, but rather one really big one. While the slug only expands to approx. 1", tissue can't move out of the way fast enough and the crushed tissue size is much larger than 1". Most of the time this is attributed to just the velocity of the round (e.g. rifles), but diameter is important too. The velocity with which the tissue must move is a function of the rounds velocity (time in which has to travel), elasticity of the tissue (assumed constant here, but it isn't) and the distance it must travel to no longer have the bullets force being applied to it (radius of the bullet).

I.e. for a given velocity, the tissue move further in the same period of time for a larger caliber bullet than a smaller one. E.g. a 9mm FMJ bullet moves tissue 0.178" before any further movement is due to momentum of the tissue, while a .45 FMJ moves it 0.225". (note I've ignored the mass implications here, but they also favor the larger round) If the impact velocities are the same, the speed which tissue would have to be pushed aside is higher for the larger round since the tissue has the same time to move, but must move faster. This impart more momentum to the tissue and if it is sufficiently high, the tissue will crush and not return to it's original shape after the bullet passes through. The momentum of the tissue pushed aside by the bullet keeps it moving and imparts a velocity to the tissue not directly impacted by the bullet. If the momentum of the tissue is very high it can actually crush the surrounding tissue not directly touched by the bullet.

This is generally attributed only to rifles and only hose above 2000fps. However, as I stated, all of that analysis doesn't take into account the diameter of the round. It is assumed (incorrectly) that this projectile velocity is constant for all diameter projectiles. Since it is the momentum of the directly crushed tissue that imparts a velocity to the surrounding tissue (not directly impacted by the bullet), the bullet velocity and diameter are vitally important because they affect the velocity and mass of tissue being pushed aside (momentum is mass x velocity). This ignores shape (a round shape increases the time tissue can move and thus, decreases the velocity with which it must move), but also explains why large caliber, but slow bullets like 45/70, .45, 12ga slugs, etc. create cavities larger than the diameter of the bullet while not traveling over the magical 2000fps barrier normally quoted as required to cause this. The 2000fps barrier tends to be established with .22-.30 cal rifle data. Since, the mass of tissue directly impacting the bullet increases as a square of the bullet radius (i.e. area), the difference between a .20 cal and .30 cal bullet is smaller than the difference between a .30 and .40 cal.

E.g.
20 cal = 0.0314 in^2
30 cal = 0.0707 in^2
40 cal = 0.126 in^2

Delta (20, 30) = 0.0393 in^2
Delta (30, 40) = 0.0553 in^2 or approx. 40% larger

Thus, if the shape and impact velocity are equal, 40% more tissue must move aside in the same time and it must move an average of caliber/2 (radius) more before the bullet no longer imparts a force on it and momentum takes over.

[WRW]

For a well placed first shot I think the slug would be far and away the superior of shotgun rounds. I'm thinking deer browsing and unaware of the hunter (kinda like a sniper shot).

Good reasons for using buckshot are: hasty shots, moving targets, more forgiving of buck fever or lack of experience (kinda like a home invasion or firefight scenario). More opportunities to hit more vital organs.

[gunderwood]

For a well placed first shot I think the slug would be far and away the superior of shotgun rounds. I'm thinking deer browsing and unaware of the hunter (kinda like a sniper shot).

Good reasons for using buckshot are: hasty shots, moving targets, more forgiving of buck fever or lack of experience (kinda like a home invasion or firefight scenario). More opportunities to hit more vital organs.

I hear what you are saying, but...

Buckshot barely spreads at 10 yards for the home defense/tactical/LE loads commonly used. Even for regular buckshot loads, the spread is not tremendous.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot45.htm

The flight controlled buckshots are designed that way to concentrate the firepower of buckshot because when it spreads out, the damage potential is considerably less. I see three possible outcomes to consider:

1. You use regular buckshot and nearly/mostly miss: A "32ACP FMJ" like hit isn't bad and better than a slug that completely missed, but if the other pellets missed because of a poorly aimed shot (assumed here), that single pellet or two isn't going to be anywhere near the important vitals and will do considerably less damage. I doubt this will stop anyone who wasn't persuaded not to continue by the simple fact you shot at them...miss or not. You likely need another shot just like the slug as nothing substantial changed after the first shot.

2. You use regular buckshot and make a marginal hit: With a marginal hit you *might* have a single pellet hit a good vital like the heart. The spread is ok, but not great at 10 yards or so. Again, a single "32ACP FMJ" like hit isn't much even if it is through the heart. Sure without medical attention they will die, but if street violence has taught us anything, it is that they die in the hospital after finishing business. If you aren't using HP slugs, I would agree that the buckshot has a higher probability of stopping your threat with a marginal shot. However, the wound cavity of HP slugs is massive. So much so that there almost isn't a place on the torso that you can only score a marginal hit. There is a major artery within the wound cavity for just about any marginal torso hit. Take gel tests with a grain of salt, but we aren't exactly splitting hairs here like with pistol calibers.

3. You use tactical flight controlled buckshot and you make a marginal hit: Congratulations, you have the best self defense buckshot around, but now the spread is practically a slug at any reasonable distance. Any advantage regular buckshot had in making up for the marginal hit is now void. So, while this buckshot works well and recoils less then regular slugs, it recoils just as much as low recoil slugs and does less damage than HP slugs. The only reason to use tactical buckshot IMHO, is because missed shots penetration common interior walls less than even a HP slug. Risk reduction.

As you note, any substantial hit and the HP slug easily out paces even the best buckshot IMHO. We haven't even discussed vests which slugs are vastly superior for. They won't penetrate, but the blunt trauma is extreme. Also, if they hide behind a wall or object, slugs are vastly better then buckshot.

If the slugs aren't low recoil and aren't HP, I retract all of this and suggest tactical 00 buck. While most of us can shoot regular or even magnum slugs with no concern, follow up shots or shots taken with out proper stance are a major concern. I don't care how manly you are, you can not shoot multiple 3" 12ga 1-3/8oz magnum slugs as quickly as a pistol or carbine. The HP slugs really make up for the shot placement too. Regular slugs are awesome, but shot placement is more vital. Of course HP slugs don't penetrate as well as regular slugs for barriers, but perform better than buckshot.

I'm not trying to convert anyone or say choosing something other than what I have is a bad idea. I started the thread to share info and learn from others research. I hope my posts are helpful rather then

[WRW]

On that marginal hit where one pellet hits the heart, where do the rest on the pellets go? The torso is rich with vessels and vital organs. Even just letting the air out of one side is painful and compromises oxygenation.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, and, as you have pointed out, follow-up shots are always a good idea. Each individual has to determine whether or not penetration of a wall is a boon or a curse...apartment dwellers tend to lean toward less wall penetration, and if I live next door I agree with that.

As for sharing info, Good Job!!! I see a lot of really good information coming from you and hope you keep it up.

[gunderwood]

On that marginal hit where one pellet hits the heart, where do the rest on the pellets go? The torso is rich with vessels and vital organs. Even just letting the air out of one side is painful and compromises oxygenation.

Marginal hit with regular buckshot or the tactical buckshot? The spread patterns are vastly different.

Tactical buckshot: Spread and wound cavity is no larger than a slug. Thus, in every way, but general risk reduction to your family or neighbours from a missed shot (you don't know what is going to happen until after it occurs, so you manage risk and plan), the 00 is inferior. This is exactly why police use buckshot or slugs depending on the situation.

Regular buckshot: Yes, with a marginal hit the other pellets go some where. We can not say where as each shot will be different. It is possible every other pellet penetrates a nice blood vessel or none do. What we can say is the following.

1. The pellets lack the shape, size or velocity to cause a permanent cavity larger than their diameter (in general). Just like most pistols, the pellet must touch everything it destroys. For 00 buck this works out to be 0.33"^2 x pi x 9 pellets = nine 0.34" holes. This is just under 9mm FMJ which has been shown to be a poor stopper. The penetration of individual buckshot pellets, when not close together, is usually closer to 9" rather than the 12-14" commonly seen in gel testing (where they are shot at a few feet vice 10 yards). I should note that this fails the preferred 12". The total area destroyed is 3.06 sqin. A 1" expanded HP slug has a frontal area of 3.14" sqin, but from testing and real results appears to create a much larger permanent cavity as I explained above.

The brassfetcher link I originally posted said it created a 6" permanent cavity for the first 10"! I think some of that is due to the block being smaller than it should have been, but that tells you something because all of the buckshot loads don't have the problem of destroying the edges of the same size block! A 1.25" cavity is: 4.9 sqin or 63% larger! That is a conservative estimate and approximately what none HP slugs seem to generate. A 2" cavity is: 12.56 sqin or 400%+ larger! A 3" cavity is: 28.27 sqin or 900%+ larger! If a HP slug is making a cavity larger than its expansion diameter, it wins in tissue area destroyed by a huge margin.

2. The effectiveness variance of the buckshot round will be more than a HP slug. It is possible for all of those pellets to hit nice blood vessels, but it is also possible for them to completely miss anything important. Thus, some buckshot wounds will be devastating and other less so. Draw me a 2" circle and show me a marginal hit that doesn't cause massive blood loss.

3. HP slugs don't have the over-penetration regular slugs do. They penetration on average to 16" which isn't much more than buckshot. They do penetrate barriers and remain effective better than buckshot. That can be good or bad either way.

4. Collected statistics back this up. Here is one link, but it mirrors what I've seen elsewhere: http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_ammo.htm

Federal "Tactical" 2-3/4-inch 00 buck 96%
Remington "Magnum" 3-inch 00 buck 94%
Winchester 2-3/4-inch 00 buck 94%
Federal 2-3/4-inch 00 buck 89%
Remington 2-3/4-inch 00 buck 88%

Some shooters prefer #4 or #1 buckshot over 00 buck. Real world one shot stopping success of the #4 buck is a respectable 81-83%.

The one ounce slug, fired from a 2-3/4-inch Federal, Remington, or Winchester shell, has a one shot stopping success of 98%

Note that those are regular slugs, not magnums or HP. Only the 00 buck tactical comes close to a regular slug and the next closest are magnums. People argue 9mm HPs aren't effective because they are around low 90%. Seeing the gel test differences between a tactical HP slug and a regular (with a 98% one shot stop rating) only makes me more confident in them!

[gunderwood]

I was distracted when I did the math for the above post and in some cases used the diameter vice the radius. Yes, I know the difference and simply didn't hit the right keys to divide by 2. I'm sad that no one checked my numbers. Either no one reads my posts or I can tell you anything I want and it is taken as truth.

So here is the corrected frontal area calcs.

00 Buck: 0.82 sqin

Slugs (sqin/% of buckshot)
1.0 (wound cavity only as large as expanded slug, worst case): 0.79 sqin / 96%
1.25: 1.23 sqin / 150%
1.5: 1.77 sqin / 216%
2.0: 3.14 sqin / 384%
3.0: 7.07 sqin / 865%
6.0 (brassfetchers claimed cavity, but I'm not entirely sold): 28.27 sqin / 3,460%

The numbers were wrong, but the conclusion is still the same. If a HP slug causes any more damage than its size (i.e. it damages tissue not directly touched), it wins hands down. I like HP slugs, but would choose a 00 Buck tactical load if I was concerned about a missed shot or I couldn't get low recoil HP slugs and had to use regular slugs.

[WRW]

The numbers were wrong, but the conclusion is still the same. If a HP slug causes any more damage than its size (i.e. it damages tissue not directly touched), it wins hands down. I like HP slugs, but would choose a 00 Buck tactical load if I was concerned about a missed shot or I couldn't get low recoil HP slugs and had to use regular slugs.

I'm not sure if it was addressed (need new prescription for my glasses so I don't read as thoroughly as I should), but slugs have another possible advantage in disabling skeletal injuries. Break the bone and the appendage is useless.

[Palladin]

I'm sad that no one checked my numbers. Either no one reads my posts or I can tell you anything I want and it is taken as truth.

I read them, g, I just figgered you knew what you were talking about!

If it's lead and comes at you fast, it's gonna hurt!

[CowboyT]

Gunderwood, thanks for all this info. I hadn't considered HP slugs before, but it does make sense. In a 12-gauge, that's one really big HP bullet!

Imagine casting such slugs...wow....

[gunderwood]

I'm sad that no one checked my numbers. Either no one reads my posts or I can tell you anything I want and it is taken as truth.

I read them, g, I just figgered you knew what you were talking about!

If it's lead and comes at you fast, it's gonna hurt!

It doesn't change the analysis, but it does change the numbers.