What can you say about it?

[owner1121]

John Wayne says "protect the right to bear arms!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUB65XcwqOg

[Taggure]

John Wayne says "protect the right to bear arms!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUB65XcwqOg

[Taggure]

Spoken by a TRUE American!

Great Words by a Great Man, and It is a shame that he is not alive today to help lead us out of this mess that we are in. John must be rolling over in his grave seeing what is becoming of this great nation; what with all the Hat in the Hand, Bowing and saying we are sorry Crap.

This president is not even a fraction of a percent the man or the American that John Wayne was. He (president) could not even start to explain the Pledge of Allegiance because he has probably never said it and if he did he never meant a word of it.

@owner1121 thanks for this post this was a good one

Vern

I Pledge Allegiance
(I Promise to be faithful and true (Promise my loyalty) )
to the flag
( to the emblem that stands for and represents )
of the United States
(all 50 states, each of them individual, and individually represented on the flag )
of America
(yet formed into a UNION of one Nation.)
and to the Republic
( And I also pledge my loyalty to the Government that is itself a Republic, a form of government where the PEOPLE are sovereign, )
for which it stands,
( this government also being represented by the Flag to which I promise loyalty. )
one Nation under God,
(These 50 individual states are united as a single Republic under the Divine providence of God, "our most powerful resource" (according to the words of President Eisenhower))
Indivisible,
(and can not be separated. (This part of the original version of the pledge was written just 30 years after the beginning of the Civil War and demonstrates the unity sought in the years after that divisive period in our history) )
with Liberty
(The people of this Nation being afforded the freedom to pursue "life, liberty, and happiness", )
and Justice
(And each person entitled to be treated justly, fairly, and according to proper law and principle,)
for All.
(And these principles afforded to EVERY AMERICAN, regardless of race, religion, color, creed, or any other criteria. Just as the flag represents 50 individual states that can not be divided or separated, this Nation represents millions of people who can not be separated or divided.)

Thus it is that when you Pledge Allegiance to the United States Flag, You:
*Promise your loyalty to the Flag itself.
*Promise your loyalty to your own and the other 49 States.
*Promise your loyalty to the Government that unites us all,
Recognizing that we are ONE Nation under God,
That we can not or should not be divided or alone,
And understanding the right to Liberty and Justice belongs to ALL of us.

[wylde007]

The pledge is a propaganda tool to make obedient serfs out of the people.

The flag is a symbol of the government used to promote its own self-righteousness and get a little "rah-rah-rah" going from the tax slaves to make them feel like they belong to something important.

Indivisible is utter crap. That is 100% violation of Constitutional and true republican principle. Any country, state or person who does not enjoy the right to peacefully and amicably leave a VOLUNTARY UNION is not free.

That Red Skelton belt of hogwash irritates me to no end.

Here are some students reciting the pledge in 1935. Look familiar?



The original pledge was written by one Francis Bellamy, a socialist, to express the ideals of his cousin's utopian socialist writings in Looking Backward and Equality. The image you see above was originally known as the "Bellamy Salute".

I fell for it when I was a child because I did not know any better. What's your excuse?

[Taggure]

I happen to believe it in the true sense as I stated above that is my excuse

The one thing that is missing currently out of it is the Government that unites us all, as this administrationand goverment is trying to drive a wedge in amongst us not unite us.


Vern

[SgtBill]

If you don't like the way thing's are in this country then LEAVE. I am sure you also never spent any time in the military as they also have a pledge to raise their hand to just like Law Enforcement Officers Do.
Bill
Retired Det. Sergeant of Police
Former U.S. Marine
Former U.S.Air Force

[WRW]

Wow. I'll just say that I don't have any problem with the Pledge.

[wylde007]

I happen to believe it in the true sense as I stated above that is my excuse

Then you know nothing of its origins nor its intended purpose.

If you don't like the way thing's are in this country then LEAVE.

Like a broken record that only plays one song.

I am sure you also never spent any time in the military as they also have a pledge to raise their hand to just like Law Enforcement Officers Do.

I stand corrected. Two songs.

The wedge is not being driven by this administration. It is being driven by generation after generation of indoctrinated shills who have been led to believe that military service = patriotism.

They have been led to believe that the union is indivisible because Lincoln said so and used a military invasion to prove his "correctness".

And they've been fed line after line about how anyone who wants to be free should go live somewhere else when all that a true friend of liberty wants is for government to leave them the hell alone.

[SgtBill]

Like I have said prior, you HATE law enforcement of any type and also the Military. So this post will go nowhere.
Bill

[wylde007]

I hate POWER that is assumed and abused, not vested of and tempered by the CIVIL AUTHORITY.

You don't seem to recognize or appreciate the difference between the two so, as you say, this post will go "nowhere"... except maybe right over your head.

[Taggure]

The wedge is not being driven by this administration. It is being driven by generation after generation of indoctrinated shills who have been led to believe that military service = patriotism.

I am real sorry you feel this way. Please then oh enlighten one explain then what is Patriotism.

I love this country and will make no bones about it. I may not like the direction that it is going in right now, but that is a different discussion.

I served it proudly for 21 years through the Cold War and did 2 tours in Beirut as well Central America as a lot of other of God's little Hell Holes on earth, and every time that I look at the flag, say the Pledge of Allegiance, or sing the National Anthem I think of my fellow soldiers, friends and family members that have given their lives in military service to protect our rights to have this conversation.

You can argue all you want on this point and it will not change my mind.

I do look at serving in the Military = Patriotism.

I guess we agree to disagree on this

Vern

[SgtBill]

Then I have to Assume that you believe that all of the Military assume their power and abuse it and that all of the Law Enforcement Agency's in this country also assume and abuse their power.
What would you rather see happen in this country without law enforcement or the military.
Bill
P.S. I know that this is a loaded question for you.

[Taggure]

Bill
P.S. I know that this is a loaded question for you.

There is a word for folks like you Hang on a minute I will think of it .................that is right could it be antagonizer

[wylde007]

I do look at serving in the Military = Patriotism.

My contention is to the people who have formulated the opinion that patriotism is ONLY a label enjoyed by those who have served.

I did not mean to imply that soldiers might not be patriotic, though I know that there are plenty who are in it strictly for a paycheck. That makes them mercenaries, which is one step above conscripts.

Our founders are considered patriots not because they fought for one country, but because they fought against a tyranny. Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin - these men who never waved the U.S. flag, or took up arms in battle - alongside George Washington, Patrick Henry and others who did, are considered just as much patriots as their military counterparts.

Do you consider them unpatriotic because they did not serve? Are the only people who may be considered "patriots" those who worship the U.S. government and its flag? Patriotism is not fawning admiration and blind nationalism. It is an adherence to the ideal that all men are created equal and entitled to enjoy and experience life devoid of tyranny.

The U.S. government, more and more, represents everything that our founders fought against. Dissent is as patriotic (perhaps moreso) than endorsement. I consider more patriotic the man who struggles against an unjust government than one who would serve it.

What would you rather see happen in this country without law enforcement or the military.

Liberty. A return to sovereign authority and the right of the people to execute the laws, as was intended by the Constitution. Professional law enforcement was an invention of the yankee north, removing (or delegating) authority to execute the laws from an elected representative (Sheriff) and giving it to an appointed and more broadly-funded municipal entity.

You hear far fewer stories of abuse of authority by Sheriffs and sheriff's deputies than of thin-blue-liners. To the contrary, it has been the braver Sheriffs of late, more than anyone else, who have stepped up their initiatives to stop the invasion of our borders and demand federal adherence to Constitutional restrictions on their delegated authority.

Nowhere in any state or the U.S. Constitution is the formation of municipal law enforcement suggested, implied or entertained. I honestly do not know where the authority for their existence is even derived.

As to the military, there is the Militia. An active officer corps and an organized militia, supported in time of war if necessary by the unorganized militia (read: the people) would be well sufficient to repel invasions.

Presently the military is used as an expeditionary force to expand U.S. spheres of influence and administer foreign policy. This was never their intent nor purpose.

[Taggure]

My contention is to the people who have formulated the opinion that patriotism is ONLY a label enjoyed by those who have served.

I never said that Nor did I imply it either

I know that patriotism can come in many forms and so it should.

Vern

[novasig226r]

Let me first state that I served in the military for four years. I am proud to be an American. I may not agree on many of the things that this country does (or did), and I may not like some of the laws we have in place, but I do know that I have means by which I can attempt to change what I don't like. I can stand on my soap box or I can vote at the ballot box. I cannot, however, go to my cartridge box.

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

I challenge anyone to attempt to "alter" or "abolish" our government "to institute new Government". The Civil War was not fought to abolish slavery, although the abolishment of that institution was accomplished as well. The Civil War was fought to prevent the Southern states separating from the Union. Lincoln said, "a house divided shall not stand." But Thomas Jefferson stated clearly that the People have a right to separate themselves from their government and bring about a new one for themselves. The Confederacy was denied the freedom to choose its own course of governance.

After the war, the ground was paved to enable the establishment of a strong central government. That central (Federal) government became the watchdog of America. Slowly, over decades, once free and independent States, although joined together in common defense of "American Values", began to cede their own just and rightful powers over to that central government. The death of the 10th Amendment. The States no longer challenge the central Federal government since that goes against all that we were taught in school growing up. "Salute the flag", "Pledge allegiance".

The Federal government has become the power and the States are subservient. The Courts are quick to point out what is "federal jurisdiction" and which of our rights apply only to federal questions and not state questions. Due process being a "federal" issue. This is why every independent State has its Constitution which models closely to the Federal one.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that we rally round and storm Washington. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate and stating what should be the obvious. That is: "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed". The governed are not in charge anymore and our consent is not asked.

As the Declaration of Independence is not law and is only a statement of belief, to attempt any new form of government would require the same dedication and action started by the Colonials on April 19, 1775. The Colonies were successful in separating from Great Britain. The Confederacy was not successful in separating from the Union. The Colonials were no longer subjects of England's Crown. To call oneself a subject of the Federal government is certainly your option, though others might not call you a Tory.

[wylde007]

Let me first state...

And very well stated, devil's advocate or not. Thank you.

I never said that Nor did I imply it either.

I know that patriotism can come in many forms and so it should.

Fair enough.

[zephyp]

The bottom line reason our country is in one hell of a mess right now is because we the people have sat around on our sorry collective asses griping (much like this) rather than exerting the power our founders left us by way of the Constitution. All of these abuses of power and moronic stunts by the elected twits are because we the people have allowed them for decades to get away with it...if we want to change all that then we need to stop arguing about the problem and do something about it...like it or not we should all be on the same team and we need to work together...you can bet the libs love to see us argue amongst ourselves...the problem is not our differences in opinion...the problem is our failure to take the elected and appointed to task...lets discuss that problem...

Not trying to but into the discussion just trying to get some focus on how we can devote ourselves to saving whats left. Lots of experience and wisdom on this board. We should be able to come up with something if we apply ourselves...and work together.

I'll start with a common brainstorming strategy and throw out a word to get the ball rolling...

pitchforks

[novasig226r]

Do you consider them unpatriotic because they did not serve? Are the only people who may be considered "patriots" those who worship the U.S. government and its flag? Patriotism is not fawning admiration and blind nationalism. It is an adherence to the ideal that all men are created equal and entitled to enjoy and experience life devoid of tyranny.

For me, I consider unpatriotic those who don't believe in Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness (a.k.a. "Property" if one reads Locke's second treatise). I believe those who would unlawfully take another person's Life, Liberty, or property to be unpatriotic. Those who would trample my rights while holding that I should respect theirs are unpatriotic. I find governments that would actively search for loopholes in the law to bind my rights in a convoluted, non-understandable, circuitous, and manipulative manner to be a danger to Life, Liberty, and property.

The U.S. government, more and more, represents everything that our founders fought against. Dissent is as patriotic (perhaps moreso) than endorsement. I consider more patriotic the man who struggles against an unjust government than one who would serve it.

I agree, except that I would argue that those who serve the government, in practice, are striving, in principle, to serve the people.

Nowhere in any state or the U.S. Constitution is the formation of municipal law enforcement suggested, implied or entertained. I honestly do not know where the authority for their existence is even derived.

I believe the Federal question is answered in the Necessary and Proper clause of the U.S. Constitution. "The Congress shall have Power - To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper..." One could argue as to what constitutes necessary and proper, but this clause (alongside the Commerce Clause) has been a real Horn o' Plenty for the Congress to turn blind and deaf to its constituency.

Presently the military is used as an expeditionary force to expand U.S. spheres of influence and administer foreign policy. This was never their intent nor purpose.

And I would say some in the military, as well as former military, might agree with you. I recall a very interesting story of a US soldier refusing to "do his duty" when assigned to a UN task force. He said that he takes orders from his chain of command and the President, not the secretary general of the United Nations or officers of foreign militaries. This link is to the soldier's own web site, but it offers legal documentation that surrounds the case.

[gunderwood]

WOW! What a thread!

I like these threads (when they remain civil) because they allow you to think outside of the box or from a different perspective.

novasig226r: I think I might like you.

wylde007: You raise some great points to think about. Only problem IMHO, is that zephyp is right, we need everyone. I know you and sgtbill don't get along, but when your both being so shrill it lets the good points of the argument go ignored. Please don't take this the wrong way. I'd be happy to hang and shoot with either you or sgtbill.

I find governments that would actively search for loopholes in the law to bind my rights in a convoluted, non-understandable, circuitous, and manipulative manner to be a danger to Life, Liberty, and property.

I agree, except that I would argue that those who serve the government, in practice, are striving, in principle, to serve the people.

I agree too, but I think novasig226r that you might be a little optimistic here. Certainly there are people who join the government (military, politics, police, civil service) to serve the people, but the vast majority do it for other reasons. A job, free schooling, nothing better to do, etc. This is a lot like the beauty pageant joke...everything is about world peace. However, if you hang around and observe them long enough you find serving the people (or world peace) isn't high on the list and often isn't even on the list. Don't even think of bringing the subject up though. I guarantee you that even the most self serving of them will crucify you if you cast doubt on their reasons for being in the government...like I said, world peace. It is the right answer even when it isn't anywhere near the truth.