Need help with Loudoun County CHP

[totes6]

So I need some advice on my CHP application. I downloaded form SP-248 from the State Police website. I had everything filled out, just needed to sign it in front of the notary. According to the documentation from the website of the Clerk of the Circuit Court in Loudoun County (http://www.loudoun.gov/Default.aspx?tabid=798) I needed the following documentation.

SP-248 signed and notorized (notary available at the sheriffs office)
Proof of firearm proficiency (I provided a NRA pistol course completion certificate)

The documentation states that I need to take my documents to the local sheriff's office where they will do a background check and provide me with a sealed envelope that I need to then deliver to the office of the clerk of the circuit court. So far so good, I get to the sheriff's office provide my documentation which I signed in front of the notary and then the notary signed, they asked to see my driver's license for proof of identification, which I provided. It takes them about 20 minutes to run my background check and they then provide me with the sealed envelope. They verbally instruct me to take the sealed envelope to the office of the clerk of the circuit court. So I head on over to the county court house. I deliver the envelope (still sealed) to the office and pay my 40 dollar processing fee. Once again asked for my driver's license for proof of identity. Which I provided. I get my receipt showing that the fee has been paid and the court case has been opened. So assuming everything is swell I head out on my way.

Now this all happened on April 1st, (I know great day for this and all) I get an envelope today April 9th from the "Twentieth Judicial Court," and I am thinking great my CHP showed up in 8 days this is amazing. Instead I open it up and all that is in there is a single sheet of paper stating that my application was not filled out completely. Below that is a list of boxes and the only one checked states, "You did not include Photo Identification." At the bottom it says "Before your application will be forwarded to a judge, you will need to COMPLETE your application. Necessary documentation must be filed with the Clerk of the Circuit Court." So now I am puzzled and start looking through both the State Police documentation and the documentation provided by the Clerk of the Circuit Court and can find nothing stating that I needed to provide photo identification. So now I am really puzzled as to what route I should take. Any suggestions would be welcomed.

[ProShooter]

First off, Loudoun screwed the pooch by requiring you to take anything to the Sheriff's Office. The Code says the Clerk of the Circuit Court. The background check is to be done after you turn it in to the Clerk, not before, but I digress....

Nowhere does the Code require you to submit a photo or photo id with the application. Its only recently been decided by a court case in Fairfax(?) that you must show your id when actually turning it in to show proof of residency.

Print out a copy of 18.2-308, and go back to the Clerk. Tell them to go pound sand if they think that you are going to submit a photo.

[totes6]

Thank you for your reply ProShooter. I had already read through that section of VA law and gathered the same basic conclusion you stated. It is nice to now someone else is reading it the same way

Guess I am going to have to have a chat with our County Clerk. Although I am curious if anyone else is from Loudoun county here and had any issues with their permit process.

[Diomed]

I'm given to understand that the photo requirement is for non-resident permits. Probably someone misread something and it snowballed from there...

[BluemontGlock]

WELL...
It (really) goes like this...

The number of requested CCP permits has tripled, the staff at the courthouse has, at best, stayed the same, ...

for me, it was i had changed my middle name (which was my grandfathers name, so the only way it would be changed is over my dead body)...when i got there, started asking questions, the folks that "investigated" my application were not around to explain why, and i was told that the error was "fine" (with whom exactly?), and i just needed to write and sign a separate docuement that stated I had never changed my name, and have that notorized...so i ask where did you find a document that i changed my name? Shrug, No ans... why is there not a copy in with the court case? Why do i have to prove that i never chagned my name when you cannot show me where i did...? ((BLANK STARE))
the answer..."i don't know, that is what it says here..."...so i could get a notorized copy or wait 3 to 5 weeks, minimum , for a spot on the judges calendar... notorozed copy, HO! net extended to the process - 3 weeks

basically it was a way to extend to process out to it maximum, IMHO...

I have spoken to others who have had similer "nonesense" expiereinces in getting thier CCP in Loudoun...

and yes, they make you do your background at the sheriff's office FIRST, and then go directly to the courthouse THAT day with your sealed envelope...
and No, it is not written up that way ...

Welcome to Low Down Loudoooooon!

[zephyp]

Here in Fairfax county believe it or not they seem to do CHP IAW VA code....no hassles and the nice lady who took my application last year was very efficient. I think she was getting lots of practice.

[totes6]

Well this could definitely get very interesting.
I called up the Clerk of the Circuit Court's office today. I got transferred to the clerk that had written me the letter stating that my application was incomplete. I explained that I had been in the Sherrif's office and the Clerk's office on the 1st of April. And that I had received the letter on the 9th of April. I explained that I had reviewed all documentation that I could find regarding the CHP including State Statute 18.2-308 (I think someone had a sense of humor with that subsection 18 gauge? and 308 caliber?, but I digress), VA State Police documentation, as well as the documentation from the Loudoun County's Clerk of the Circuit Court's website. And I could not find anywhere it required a resident to provide photo identification in the application.
Her initial response:"Well all of the other applications I process have photo identification."
I asked her to point me to any requirement to provide photo identification in the application. And she asked why I didn't want to provide a copy of my drivers license. I responded with a logical argument, "the file is open to the public and I don't want anyone being able to simply go ask for my file and have a copy of my drivers license right there." So she asks me to hold for a minute while she gets clarification. So I say sure no problem. She comes back a few minutes later and stated that I was correct, that the statute does not require photo identification for the application, but I was required to carry photo identification with the concealed firearm permit and the judge wanted to see the photo identification to ensure I had it. She then asks if I still refuse to submit photo identification. I stated that I will not submit photo identification for the application, but that I did understand that it was my responsibility to carry such identification with me with my CHP.
So this is what bugs me the most about this. I still had to personally go to the court house down to the archives room to retrieve the case file and have the clerk downstairs send it back to the judge's chambers. But I took the opportunity to look over what was in the file and found it rather interesting. It includes a copy of your driving record including each time I was issued a photo id by the DMV. So from the application form that was notarized establishing that I do live in VA and my driving record establishing that I do indeed have a drivers license I see absolutely no reason for a copy of my drivers license to be in my file. The reason that I feel this could be interesting is that I have a feeling that I might have to go before the Judge before this all gets straightened out, so ProShooter if you find that case in Fairfax that states that a copy of my driver's license is not required that would be a great help as it would also set precedence. I have searched for it online, but can't seem to find it.

Thank you all for your replies and I will keep it updated as this continues. If anyone has any recommendations I am always willing to listen.

[BluemontGlock]

just being a betting man, and certainly watching with great fascination,

but I will betchu this is nothing more than a stall tactic, for whatever reason...

It is all so similer to my experience...
-non-justifiable
-not required
-lack of specifics or reasonable explanation based on the fact that they have ALL the information, THEY are the courts, and it just all seems SO incovienient...

GOOD LUCK, & standing by...

[ProShooter]

so ProShooter if you find that case in Fairfax that states that a copy of my driver's license is not required that would be a great help as it would also set precedence. I have searched for it online, but can't seem to find it.

Submitting a photo or photo id is not required. Only that you provide documentation attesting to the fact that you do reside in said county/city.

Here's the info that I have:

As to the requirement for proof of residency. The Virginia Court of Appeals recently denied a Writ of Mandamus seeking to require the Fairfax Circuit Court Clerk to "process her application for a concealed handgun permit without requiring proof of her residency in Fairfax County." The case is Wei L. Kent v. Circuit Court of Fairfax County, Record No. 1652-09-4.

In the Order dening the Writ of Mandamus the court stated:

By granting a circuit court the authority to issue concealed handgun permits only to residents of that county or city, Code Section18.2-308(D) requires the circuit court clerk or judge to determine if an applicant for a permit is indeed a resident. A non-resident of the county or city is ineligible for a concealed handgun permit issued by the circuit court that serves that locality. Thus, requiring an application for a permit to be accompanied by proof of residency does not call for information beyond that "necessary to determine eligibility for the permit."

I'd give them my library card, utility bill, rent receipt etc. Any official document that shows where you live.

[FrankG0]

What a coincidence! I did exactly what you did but the day before on the 31st.
I did mine early afternoon right before lunch at the Sheriff's office.
Then took it straight to the courthouse.
I haven't received anything yet and I hope I don't get a similar letter!
They looked at my ID at the Sheriff's Office but I had mine notarized for free at my credit union. Then they looked at my ID at the courthouse but I thought it was for writing a check.
They did not photocopy it and then she redacted my SSN from my application while I watched after asking if I wanted it redacted. Good luck to you! I will post back once I get mine too...

Edit: question: How long have you loved in Loudoun? I have been here over 11 years. Not that it should matter!

[totes6]

@GrankG0

Good luck with your permit process, are you sure they didn't copy the license at the sheriff's office? I imagine that is where they would do it and slip it in with the other documents in the "sealed" envelope. In regards to the SSN, I didn't even bother to put it on the application, "since I was NOT required."
I have actually lived in loudoun county my entire 25 years of life.

[FrankG0]

Well I received my CHP in the mail today!! I am very happy.
So that was quick from the 31st to today. Still keeping my fingers crossed for you.

[totes6]

Congrats FrankG0, I am glad it worked out for you. I still haven't heard back yet from the judge. I am just waiting for the yellow baggie to show up on my door knob from the sheriffs office informing me that the Judge has summoned me to show up in his Court Room. Somehow I don't think that I am going to be on his Christmas Card mailing list.

[gatorbait]

I've lived in Fairfax County for about 35 years--only a minor fraction of my life, I'm sorry to say--and I'm so happy to read how many here have found the county in compliance with the law with respect to CHP application process.How did I know I'd be a "special" case?

Not too long after Fairfax publicized their version of the process., I decided to go ahead and submit. County said go to the government center or to any of the police headquarters outposts to get an application form and instructions: Done. At The Ball's Hill station near McClean a grey-haired sergeant with his belly hanging over his belt told me they've changed the location for getting the form. Now one had to go to the courthouse (then at Fairfax Cty, probably). I asked if they'd made that change since the Washington Post was delivered this morning. No direct answer, but: "If I had my way they wouldn't let people go arond carrying concealed weapons." I replied that was what I'd expect and that's why he's walking around a police outpost carrying a coffee mug instead of having an aide bring him a nice cuppa from the galley in his legislative office. "Grrrrr."

Drove where I had to go and picked up an application form and instruction sheet. Read the rules carefully, filled out the form carefully and neatly using black or blue-black ink. Went to the AAA and got a couple of passport photos. Made copies of what in my day was issued instead of a DD Form 114. It showed I was an infantry sergeant in the Regular Army (who on occasion carried a 1911A1), and the application instructions advised that would relieve me of being required to take an egregiously expensive NRA safety lesson. Did all my notary stuff, scraped up some considerable amount of dough (which is why the county requires a permit in the first place).

Back to the courthouse, and offered my neatly assembled package and bank draught to the clerk lady at which point my reluctant county's foot-dragging and obstructive policy became too obvious to ignore. Fairfax County is special, I learned. They wouldn't take no steenkin' service record; in Fairfax having spent 3 years as an NCO in one of the combat arms branches meant one could attend school under the GI Bill (nothing more). And I had to buy some quarters and make extra copies in their Xerox room. And here's a list of NRA-approved scholars who'll take your money in exchange for a certificate that says you'll point your piece only at someone you'd probably miss, anyhow.

And why am I telling you all this and kvetching and whining? Here's why. They tick me off. I'm not certain who our local government is of, by, and for but I promise it's not the people.

[wally626]

The law is very clear proof of an honorable discharge from the arm forces of the US counts as proof of competency.

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
...
G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:
...
5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services;
...

Depending on how much of a fuss you wish to make, I would either take one of the on-line courses, a free hunter safety course, or get in touch with the VCDL, they may have some good advice on how to protest the action by the clerk.

[zephyp]

I used my DD 250 last year as proof here in FFX county...no problem and it even had misspelled my middle name...

[OakRidgeStars]

...no problem and it even had misspelled my middle name...

Not many people know how to correctly spell "Bocephus"

[allingeneral]

...no problem and it even had misspelled my middle name...

Not many people know how to correctly spell "Bocephus"

Or "Kawliga"!

Now you've gone and made me do it... firing up iTunes .. need a Hank fix

[zephyp]

...no problem and it even had misspelled my middle name...

Not many people know how to correctly spell "Bocephus"

Yep, jus call me Bubba or Billy Bob...

[totes6]

So I just got off the phone today with the Law Clerk. She stated that the Judge had review my file and would not sign the CHP without Photo Identification. I asked her to send that to me in writing, this way I have documented proof. So I guess my question is, anyone know a good lawyer that is familiar with CHP cases? I am getting tired of playing nice with the courts here in Loudoun County.