Knives in VA

[JWaltz91]

"§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature." ~Code of Virginia - 18.2-308

I know this forum's all about guns, but can anyone tell me if this means that bowie knives are perfectly legal if carried unconcealed? I've been having a debate with a friend about this for a while and we can't settle this because everywhere we look online doesn't have full explanations of the laws pertaining to knives. I personally carry a knife a little over 3 inches for self-defense but I'm not sure whether it's illegal for it to be concealed or not because it's none of the above-listed types of knives, which is where the debate is at.

[GS78]

any weapon of like kind as those enumerated ...

there's your answer.

[allingeneral]

He's specifically asking about a Bowie knife, which is explicitly mentioned in the statute, so "like kind" doesn't apply to the OP question.

He wants to know if a Bowie knife can be legally Open Carried. Since the statute says that Bowie knives, dirks, etc cannot be Concealed... I can't find anything that says that it's illegal to "Possess" a Bowie knife - and therefore, Open Carry of a Bowie knife should be acceptable in my IANAL opinion. (unless someone else can find a specific statute that outlaws the possession of a Bowie knife)

[GS78]

....I disagree, The word "any" before dirk, also applies to the following examples.... any dirk, any bowie knife...and on and on. I read it that way anyway, as far as the 3 inch length, I believe that falls under "like kind"....and would be considered illegal if concealed.

[GS78]

OH NOW I GET IT!!!!!!



Duh. according to this example I would say yes open carry should be fine. I retract my earlier posting, and if asked will only say that I do not recall making such statements, and on advice from my counsel I repectfully.............



but if he wants to know if it's Illegal to conceal his 3 inch Bowie knife, according to this example, I would say it is illegal to conceal it. In short , and after reading the OP again, I think he wants to know both answers?

[Hobie]

I seem to remember a portion of the code that exempts folding knives with blades of 3" or LESS in length. That would be why have a Spyderco Delica instead of an Endura or Military...

Obviously one can carry one's hunting knife open carry. However, a way back in 1972 or 1973 it was proposed that the exception for hunting knives being concealed (as in under one's hunting coat) be ended. I thought that was defeated but the code cited would indicate otherwise. Many, many hunters carry knives on their belts and then don their coats.

[Rumson]

I stay under 3 1/4 for concealed folders. Anything larger need to be in the open such as sheathed and on the hip with no shirt covering it. Seems to have worked for the last few decades and I have presented the folder to law enforcement in the past.

I've also presented larger folders when I was driving/slinging freight for a living, but it was considered a tool each time. Don't have the statute on any of these, but that's been my experience.

ETA: If you get yanked by the police based on my post, I am not a lawyer and have never played one on TV. But it does give you input to further pursue the statutes.

[zephyp]

I stay under 3 1/4 for concealed folders. Anything larger need to be in the open such as sheathed and on the hip with no shirt covering it. Seems to have worked for the last few decades and I have presented the folder to law enforcement in the past.

I've also presented larger folders when I was driving/slinging freight for a living, but it was considered a tool each time. Don't have the statute on any of these, but that's been my experience.

ETA: If you get yanked by the police based on my post, I am not a lawyer and have never played one on TV. But it does give you input to further pursue the statutes.

I thought the limit on concealed folders was 3 1/2? Mine is 3 1/4 for that reason...

[Rumson]

I stay under 3 1/4 for concealed folders. Anything larger need to be in the open such as sheathed and on the hip with no shirt covering it. Seems to have worked for the last few decades and I have presented the folder to law enforcement in the past.

I've also presented larger folders when I was driving/slinging freight for a living, but it was considered a tool each time. Don't have the statute on any of these, but that's been my experience.

ETA: If you get yanked by the police based on my post, I am not a lawyer and have never played one on TV. But it does give you input to further pursue the statutes.

I thought the limit on concealed folders was 3 1/2? Mine is 3 1/4 for that reason...

Probably so. I try stay at 3 1/4 and don't want to push the limit as the measuring point may be subject to interpretation by the arresting officer.

[zephyp]

Probably so. I try stay at 3 1/4 and don't want to push the limit as the measuring point may be subject to interpretation by the arresting officer.

I see. Well, I'd love to see the ruler that is "subject to interpretation."

And yes, the very reason mine is 3 1/4. Just in case the LEO pulls out that funny ruler...

[Rumson]

[Reverenddel]

The one time I was questioned by RPD about my pocket knife it went like this:

(walk into Krogers, Po-po at tha' Do-Do)
RPD: "Do you have a permit for knife in your pocket?"
Me: "NOPE! But I have a permit for the 9MM at the small of my back."
RPD:(laughing) Go on! (cont. Laughing)

Trust me, I think they're gonna be more concerned about that which goes "BANG", than what goes "slice". Could they be jackasses about it? Sure. But why? It's paperwork they don't have to do if they let it go, and if you have a CHP, they know you're safer than John Q Public, and commit LESS crime than POLICE!

[wally626]

The knife issue is somewhat complicated because the standard is somewhat vague. The law for school carry specifies a 3-inch maximum length. For non-school carry there are a number of knifes listed and the like kind phrase. I have looked at the appellate decisions and it appears that if the court finds the knife to be a fighting knife it may be found to be a weapon and not a tool. You can carry a concealed tool but not a concealed weapon.

Most folders that are not too long and that do not have specific features of fighting knives should be OK. See the link (upper left of page) for searching the Case law Search, terms like knife, concealed etc. should bring up some interesting reading. Actually I found the court decisions to be very readable by a laymen, except for the occasional lapse into legalese.

[Badhammer]

Are you sure about folder? A folding knife is not a dirk or bowie and by definition they're not a switchblade either.

[wally626]

There really is no set standard and persons have been convicted for carrying folding knives. Most folding knifes are not going to get you in trouble but in the end it is up to the police, if they charge you for it and the prosecutor and judge and jury. See http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/ ... 708041.pdf for an example of a conviction for a 3.5-inch folding knife:

The knife has several distinctive features, all obvious from a visual inspection. The metal hilt of the knife has a cross-guard to protect the hand from sliding forward during a thrusting motion.2 Measuring 1 3⁄4 inches, the cross-guard extends perpendicularly to the handle. The oversized hilt has notched indentations to enhance finger grip. On both sides of the hilt appears a raised metal relief of an oriental dragon. The knife blade comes to a point and has a serrated cutting edge. The blade locks securely in place when extended. It can be retracted only when manually unlocked. The total length of the knife, when locked in an extended position, is 8 inches. Of that length, the blade takes up 31⁄2 inches.

Where I work the limit is 2.5-inches on a knife, so that is what I carry. If I did not have that restriction for work I would probably restrict myself to 3-inch or less because I go into schools a lot for the kids activities. A knife I just used while, hunting, fishing etc. might be larger but I would also just use a external carried sheath knife, if I felt I was going to need more than 3-inches.

The explanation of what is a tool and what is a weapon.

As the Virginia Supreme Court has explained, the “purpose of the statute was to interdict the practice of carrying a deadly weapon about the person, concealed, and yet so accessible as to afford prompt and immediate use.” Schaaf v. Commonwealth, 220 Va. 429, 430, 258 S.E.2d 574, 574-75 (1979) (quoting Sutherland v. Commonwealth, 109 Va. 834, 835-36, 65 S.E. 15, 15 (1909)). To achieve this purpose, the General Assembly listed knives
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commonly used as fighting weapons. Dirks and bowie knives, for example, make useful “stabbing” weapons. O’Banion, 33 Va. App. at 58 n.2, 531 S.E.2d at 604 n.2. They have fixed blades and often, like small swords or stilettos, have cross-guards to protect the hand from sliding onto the blade during a thrust. The bowie knife has only one sharpened side, but the other side curves into a point useful for piercing. See id. While technically a folding “pocketknife,” id., a switchblade is also prohibited as it locks into a fixed position for fighting purposes. It too sometimes has a small cross-guard on its hilt for hand protection.
The General Assembly, however, did not provide an exhaustive list of fighting knives. Added to those specifically mentioned is a nonspecific category for “weapons of like kind.” Code § 18.2-308(A)(v). To fit within this category, a knife “must first be a weapon.” Delcid v. Commonwealth, 32 Va. App. 14, 17-18, 526 S.E.2d 273, 275 (2000). As we have explained:
Common experience teaches that bladed instruments may be possessed and used for non-aggressive as well as aggressive purposes. In the former instance, they are deemed implements; in the latter, weapons. Any given bladed instrument may fall into either category or both, depending on the circumstances and purpose surrounding its possession and use.
Id. This focus on a knife’s weapon-like properties excludes “from concealed weapons statutes innocuous household and industrial knives which may be carried for legitimate purposes.” Richards v. Commonwealth, 18 Va. App. 242, 246 n.2, 443 S.E.2d 177, 179 n.2 (1994). Thus, a schoolboy’s common pocketknife would necessarily fall outside the reach of the statute. See Wood ex rel. Wood v. Henry County Pub. Sch., 255 Va. 85, 95, 495 S.E.2d 255, 261 (1998).
A “weapon of like kind” includes a knife that, while not possessing the exact physical properties of the enumerated knives, has the characteristics of a fighting knife just the same. A butterfly knife, for example, is a locking pocketknife that folds into a two-part hinged
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handle. Its unusual handle does not resemble any of the knives listed in the statute. But its utility as a fighting weapon makes it a “like kind” weapon under Code § 18.2-308(A)(v). Delcid, 32 Va. App. at 18, 526 S.E.2d at 275. In particular, its “fixed blade, sharp point, and single-sharpened edge afford unquestionable utility as a stabbing weapon, useful in the same manner as a dagger, stiletto, or dirk.” Id.
Whether a knife’s fighting qualities make it a “weapon of like kind” involves “a question of fact determined by the trier of fact according to the circumstances of the case.” Richards, 18 Va. App. at 246 n.2, 443 S.E.2d at 179 n.2; see also Delcid, 32 Va. App. at 17, 526 S.E.2d at 274 (holding that the question whether a particular knife is a “weapon of like kind” is “a question of fact to be determined by the trier of fact”). We can overturn this factual determination only if it is “plainly wrong” or “without evidence to support it.” Code § 8.01-680.3

[Everett113]

I have a boot knife that was given to me by my Father. He was a LEO from another state. I have thought of carrying it from time to time. It has a 3 1/2"
blade and sharpen on both sides. Would this be illegal even with my CCW permit? I have wondered about this for some time.

[wally626]

Is this knife a non-folder? If it is a normal double bladed knife, or a lock blade, meant to be concealed in a boot, then [non lawyer free internet advise alert] yes, it would probably fail the "it's a tool not a weapon defense."

I have not found any cases in the appellate record, that is searchable from the VGOF link, that deals with a person with a CPP being arrested for having a concealed knife. Lots of cases of felons and drug dealers with knifes, etc. I only found one case of a permit holder having a knife, and in that case as far as I can tell he was not charged with anything in regards to the knife.

Does anyone know of a circuit court or appellate court case involving someone with a carry permit being charged with a concealed weapon offense for carrying a knife??

The stature itself is generally considered not to cover knives or other concealed weapons other than handguns. The re-write of the concealed weapon law submitted this legislature session made that very definite, but it was defeated, as was the bill making a butterfly knife explicitly banned.

[zephyp]

I have a boot knife that was given to me by my Father. He was a LEO from another state. I have thought of carrying it from time to time. It has a 3 1/2"
blade and sharpen on both sides. Would this be illegal even with my CCW permit? I have wondered about this for some time.

VA only issues a CHP which is for handguns only - no CCW. This is something we should push the legislators to do. Let VA issue a CCW that covers handguns and knives.

[GS78]

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cac ... Bopi3TfDZw