On The "Driverless Car"

[SHMIV]

The following rant, found at American Greatness, says much against the concept of the driverless car. Of course, I am in agreement. I find the notion to be despicable.

https://amgreatness.com/2017/11/24/say- ... ions-sake/

I particularly liked this quote:

"It’s bad enough to climb into the cockpit of a new car these days and be confronted with a home entertainment center on wheels, complete with giant video screens that don’t do a damn thing electronically a 1934 Packard couldn’t do manually back in the day when men were men, women loved them for it, and we had the culture to prove it."

Someone in the comments observed that cars with human drivers on board, are likely to be treated like firearms are, today. "Why do you NEED to pilot yourself; why do you NEED a vehicle that's not under government control? What are you hiding?"

TBH seems to think that I hate technology. This is not so. I just recognize that certain technologies have no business in certain applications. It doesn't, or shouldn't, at least, take a genius to figure out why.

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[MarcSpaz]

I like the idea of a truly autonomous vehicle; as in self-governing. I don't trust a network of automobiles because there is simply too much that can and will go wrong. I think if private vehicles had something like autonomous autopilot for airplanes, it would make over-the-road travel much more comfortable.

However, like autopilot in a plane... there needs to be local human supervision. Computers can't possibly think and respond quicker or better than a human being in EVERY situation, only because we can't write a program to overcome EVERY situation. It needs to be like cruise control, where if I hit the brake, gas or otherwise intervene, I am now in control.

I have proven to myself (and so have many others) that autonomous vehicles can't perform as well as a human being, time and time again. Every time I get on the race track, I have to disable all of the "nanny" functions, such as vehicle stabilization, traction control, and I would disable ABS if I could. Every single one of those things lead to the computer controlling the car... hitting the gas, brake, killing power, adjusting suspension performance at one corner, etc. It all leads to slower laps times and less control.

I have been racing for decades... circuit racing for 2 years now. The only time I ever lost control of the car and ended up off track was the first and last time I left the nanny programs running on a road course to see if I could make a better lap time with help from the computer. The answer was not only a no, but it ended in a technical crash. I involuntarily left the track.

The reality is, I like driving my car. I like racing. I like offroading/4-wheeling. I like to be able to just go anywhere without having to be going "somewhere". The only time I would like a vehicle with autopilot would be if I want to go to Florida, Utah, Wyoming, etc... For me personally, putting Mom's address in the GPS while the car goes relatively straight for 19 hours and not worrying about a crash because I nodded off for a few seconds, seems pretty nice.

However, back to my original thought... I like the idea of a truly autonomous vehicle, but not a driverless vehicle and NO WAY to a networked vehicle.

[MarcSpaz]

Oh... I forgot to mention, I'm not sure if you are aware of it, but the federal government is working with DC area states and local governments to get bill passed for this very thing. The federal government is passing bills to federal fund a networked driverless car program in Maryland, DC and Virginia.

Technology is literally being installed.. and has been underway for more than a year.

[kelu]

I foresee a bunch of inconvenient people having deadly crashes.

[SHMIV]

You know, I drive all the time. That's my job. When I come home from a 6 week run, the very last place that I want to be, is in a driver seat. I don't want to drive so much as a golf cart, or a lawn mower.

As such, the convenience of a driverless automobile, or an autonomous automobile, is very tempting to me. Believe me, I do get the appeal.

No, I was unaware that actual groundwork for this abomination was underway. I'm not particularly shocked by that, though. Generally speaking, the more horrible an idea is, the more likely our governing bodies are to finance it's implementation.

Kelu makes a very good observation; and the same thing had occurred to me. Aside from such "fatal flaws", the car of an "inconvenient person" could have the coordinates overridden, and that inconvenient person could find himself in an uncomfortable place.

All that aside, actual failure of devices is inevitable. At the heart of all this, is computer technology. We've all had our computers get buggy, or get a virus, or get hacked. Do we really want to entrust our lives to such vulnerable technology? It strikes me as foolish.

I've got some "driver assist" technology on my truck. I hate it. The more technologically advanced my trucks get, the less control I have over this massive machine. That should terrify anyone who has to share the road with me.

Thus far, this primarily leads to me being frustrated. A lot. And for various reasons; most of which boil down to me having to fight, not just traffic and terrain (which isn't a big deal; I did sign up for that, after all), but now I have to fight my truck, too. I shouldn't have to fight the truck. The truck is a tool. It should be a help, not a hindrance.

Overall, I just find the entire idea to be a bad one, on every level that I look at it, outside of immediate personal convenience.

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[MarcSpaz]

Generally speaking, the more horrible an idea is, the more likely our governing bodies are to finance it's implementation.[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

QFT!

Yea, man... I agree about the nanny devices. Do you have options to turn that crap off in the same manner that 4 wheelers do?

[SHMIV]

If I owned my truck, yes. I could disable a lot of this junk, or uninstall some of it, entirely. I could enable the "power" function, which would increase my horsepower (while decreasing fuel economy) in order to better maintain my speed, as I climb a mountain. (Maintaining highway speed is a safety issue). I could reprogram my shift points. I could disable the programming that decreases my horsepower when I go to "manual" mode.

Oh, yeah. If only I owned the truck. But, I do not. So, I'm stuck in "Death Trap" mode. Any company truck on the road, these days, will be in "Death Trap" mode. Just another reason to stay clear of trucks. The trucks are getting worse, and the drivers, sadly, are becoming less competent.

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[kelu]

http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2 ... 638060001/

My question is... who goes to jail in case of a bad accident? Driver? He wasn't driving. Some programmers? Nah. The manufacturer to pay a lot of money? They can go out of business in 6 months.
There is a word in my home country: the dead guy is guilty. Probably that will be the outcome.

[M1A4ME]

As often as my computer, or even my cellphone, does screwy stuff I cannot imagine ever trusting my life to a computer driven car.

Think about the hacking issues with computers. People have shown they can take over cars and airplanes already. Imagine how much "fun" they'd have once so many cars/trucks are computer controlled/driven. What a mess.

[MarcSpaz]

But if we can save just one child...



Sorry... couldn't resist.

[AlanM]

FYI:
A self-driving shuttle in Las Vegas got into an accident on its first day of service

Short version: A truck driver failed to yield right-of-way and pulled out in front of it.

Then there's one in Arizona:
We know more about that crash involving Uber’s self-driving car

New details about the collision last weekend involving one of Uber’s self-driving vehicles raise questions about how self-driving technology, which is still under development, will respond to roadway scenarios where human behavior and common driving practices may not always align with the letter of the law.

According to a report from the Tempe, Ariz., Police Department, Alexandra Cole was making a left turn across three lanes of traffic in her Honda CR-V just as the light at her intersection was preparing to change from green to yellow.

[MarcSpaz]

The solution will be the same as guns.... just take everyone's car away and then there won't be a problem, right?

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[SHMIV]

Kelu raises another interesting point; who bears responsibility, in accidents? Not just bad ones, but little fender benders, and such?

That truck driver, in Vegas, that hit the driverless shuttle; my guess is, had that shuttle had a human driver, that human driver might have caught what the truck driver was doing. My general assumption is that vehicles that are exiting parking lots, or waiting at intersections, are just going to jump in front of me. I drive accordingly. I can't count how many accidents that I have avoided, just by assuming that everyone that I share the road with, is an oblivious, self absorbed, a-hole.

Of course, this was in Vegas. There are some parts of Vegas, that if you need to be somewhere, or get out of somewhere, you just have to "own the road", one lane at a time. Nope, not safe. Also, not legal. Unfortunately, that's just how it is, in some places. Otherwise, you'll be stuck all day, flashing your blinker, and nobody cares. The thing is, the places that work that way, are inhabited by people that instinctively know that it works that way. Robotic vehicles, on the other hand, were not programmed for that.

The second link that Alan posted, leads to a news site that wants me to pay them. Ain't happenin'. So I dug this one up, instead:

http://www.businessinsider.com/uber-sel ... ort-2017-3

There were some other articles that I came across, as well, but they all boiled down to, "Stoopid Hoomin wrecks awesome robot car, so ban Hoomins".

In that case, as well, it seems that a human driver might have avoided the accident.

In driving, I have noted that driving LAWS don't always align with local driving CUSTOM. My experience with Brooklyn (God forsaken place, that it is), indicates, to me, anyway, that the way these driverless cars are programmed, they'd either all be demolished by the 1st weeks end, or they'd simply sit and wait, all day long, until it was safe to go. (Hint: at about 1AM, it will be safe to go. Unfortunately, you got in the contraption at about 7AM, the previous morning.)

Oh... Marc.... that depends; whose child are we talking about? Lol

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[AlanM]

the Washington Post doesn't REQUIRE you to pay, just create a pseudonym and use a throwaway edress and log in.

The site you linked to isn't happy with me using Ad Blocker Pro and wouldn't let me read the article.

[Swampman]

the Washington Post doesn't REQUIRE you to pay, just create a pseudonym and use a throwaway edress and log in.

The site you linked to isn't happy with me using Ad Blocker Pro and wouldn't let me read the article.

More technology controlling/limiting what we can do.

Hey SCHMIV, did you see the video on the new semi Tesla is coming out with? Maintains highway speed up a 6% grade, and guaranteed not to break for 1,000,000 miles.

[Reverenddel]

The technology I would like in vehicles? HUD (Heads Up Displays) with Night Vision, and radar....

...maybe missles for slowlaners....

But I digress, I miss "driving" my car. there is so much automated right now? I feel detached.

[MarcSpaz]

Speaking of detached... some cars a fully drive by wire, including the steering wheel. How crazy is that?

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[SHMIV]

@Alan- WaPo generally lets me get a couple of "free" articles a month. I know that there are ways to jump that wall, but I get the basic info that they offer on a topic elsewhere, with far less effort. Odd that Business Insider took issue with your ad blocker; they didn't seem to mind mine.

@Swamp- I have read about an electric semi tractor; it may have been a Tesla; the grade climbing capabilities sound familiar. As I recall, the interior renderings of the cab were interesting, but not well suited to a team operation. I note, though, that the same is true for many truck prototypes. Considering that teams are becoming more desirable, I would think that manufacturers would give team-oriented trucks more consideration. Then, too, teams are most desirable with companies, and I guess that there is a limit that companies are willing to spend on fleet trucks. I wonder if Tesla includes the batteries, in that 1,000,000 mile guarantee? My experience (and personal observation of others experience) with batteries, is that they like to fail, and that they are expensive to replace. I can think of several places that I travel through, quite regularly, where a battery failure in an electric truck, would be more than a minor nuisance. I did find it rather cool, though, that the design allowed for momentum to charge the batteries.

@Rev- Have you considered an MG? A friend of mine had a '70's Midget (bonus points for unPC model name); I never drove it, but I had occasion to sit in the drivers seat. I felt like I was sitting in an old open cockpit plane. I've wanted one, ever since. A missile button would fit right into the interior design.

@Marc- Unfamiliar with "drive by wire". I can't even envision how that might work.

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[MarcSpaz]

@Marc- Unfamiliar with "drive by wire". I can't even envision how that might work.

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Infiniti with the steer-by-wire... my mother in-law and wife both took one for a test drive, plus a friend who owns one, they all say its like you are playing a video game. There isn't even simulated feedback like in some planes.

I'm thinking about taking one for a test ride just to see what its like.

[SHMIV]

Oh, wow. I just looked up "drive by wire". I don't like that, at all! I much prefer that there be a solid, mechanical, direct link between my steering wheel and my steer wheels.

I have a similar thing in my truck, as far as shifting goes. It's a manual 12 speed transmission, that's basically shifted by robotics. There can be a slight delay in response, when you demand a shift from one gear to the next. Generally, it's not much more than a mildly aggravating nuisance. With time, you learn to compensate. But, in a steering application, I can see that being fatal. You don't have quite the room for forgiveness, when it comes to the learning curve.

No, don't much like that, at all.

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