Home Defense Shotguns Buckshot vs Birdshot

[mmckee1952]

Home Defense Shotguns Buckshot vs Birdshot

By Home Defense Gun

We have had a couple posts on shotguns and there is always a discussion about what type of ammo to use. Which one – buckshot vs birdshot? buckshot vs birdshot

There are misconceptions about what both do and the pros and cons of each. We found a great video which demonstrates shot patterns and over penetration.

Read More & Watch Video: http://www.homedefensegun.net/buckshot-vs-birdshot/

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM5U2k ... r_embedded

[Jeff82]

Sorry, Roy Huntington needs to stick to handguns. He's (almost) all wet and his advice could get someone killed.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 Sport using Tapatalk.

[jdonovan]

wow just wow.

[thekinetic]

I use 000 buckshot in my 410 judge for home defense, it's weak enough to not penetrate while strong enough to put the intruder down. With the extended 6" barrel it is effective at about 5 yards, with birdshot at least. I wouldn't trust it as a side arm due to it's bulkyness and length but for a home defense weapon it suffices.

However I do know a manufacturer that produce special rounds, albeit expensive at about $10 a round. They produce some sort of little balls that break into shrapnel rounds, salt rounds, flares, and flechette rounds (they're pretty much loaded with hundred of some sort of tiny nail).

[jdonovan]

anything that will achieve 12-15" of penetration in gel will go through household materials.

If you are in a situation where you can't tolerate over penetration or stray projectiles then get a phone and a clock for home defense. Call for the police and wait.

[ShotgunBlast]

Not that I would want to get hit with either, but especially with the cold weather finally here I'm not going to rely on birdshot to go through some big puffy jacket and stop an intruder. I have some 3" #4 buckshot loaded in mine. It's a good in-between and I like having a few extra pellets in the 3" variety.

[dorminWS]

I was wondering just where the compromise line might be.

Is #4 buck, at .24 caliber, still a little too massive to not overpenetrate? I had thought about TTTs (waterfowl shot at .22 cal.) or BBs (at .18 cal.) but that isn’t that different from #4 buck. #4 birdshot (at .13 cal)? #6 birdshot at .11 cal.?) #2 birdshot (at .15 cal.) right in the middle between TTTs/BBs and 4s/6s?

I guess it needs some penetration tests using both ballistic jelly and a 3.5” gypsum board wall. I’d think if you chawed a hole in a feller’s hide that was 8”-10” in diameter it wouldn’t have to be much over a couple of inches or so deep to really ruin his day and distract him from harming you and yours. But then there’s the possibility of drugged out supermen, I guess.

Reckon if I had to make an uninformed guess at it, I might come down at #2 shot.

But there’s only me and SWMBO at my house and not much opportunity for penetrating the dwellings of neighbors, so I can ignore those weighty issues and continue to rely upon the two or three .45 ACP 1911s I keep strategically placed around my shack. I can hide a 1911. SWMBO objects to me keeping shotguns leaned up in corners; and if it ain’t relatively handy to reach, what’s the point?

[mamabearCali]

Frangible bullets in a glock will do the trick!

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[dorminWS]

MBC's got an eye for bidness.

[MarcSpaz]

I don't understand why so many people think a shotgun is a good answer to home defense.

As far as drywall / gypsum board is concerned with regard to over-penetration, typical household builds use 3/8" drywall which has a max tensile strength of 26 lbf. Considering 9 pellet buck has a muzzle energy of over 1,500 lbf, its going through the walls... likely several of them. Even normal 20 gauge birdshot loads are 1300 lbf of muzzle energy. You would actually be better off with an M4 clone with a 16" barrel. It has less muzzle energy, is way more manageable, and with the wide variety of frangible .223 ammo available, will be more lethal with less over-penetration risk.

Realistically, a handgun like a 9mm or .40 SW with less than 600 lbf of muzzle energy and frangible ammo is your best bet. If you prefer rifles, a 300 Blackout SBR with sub-sonic rounds. All of the ease of use of a M4 clone, very short for manageability indoors, but has pistol performance at just a shade under 500 lbf of muzzle energy.

Let me explain why.

We all know clearing the house on your own is not a great idea. So, lets say all you are going to do is use it for nighttime defense if you get awakened. If someone breaks in, you grab the shotgun, hunker down and call police. Well, if you just leave the shotgun hanging around, that's dangerous. It could get stolen, used against you, someone could hurt themselves or use it on someone else. Either run those risks or you need to install a gun locker/safe in your bedroom. Nothing says "home decor" and romance like a safe by the bed.

What if you MUST clear a house on your own? Maybe your phone isn't working? Maybe you have loved ones elsewhere in the house, be it family or guests, and you want to secure their safety? Maybe you are 100% alone, with a working phone, but the person who broke in set the house on fire to cover their tracks and you need to escape long before the fire department and police arrive?

Well, a typical shotgun with an 18" barrel (the shortest barrel available without getting into NFA stuff) is about 38"+ long. You're body is likely about 10" thick. So, you have about 48" from your back, to the tip of the shotgun barrel. Most hallways in modern home (i.e. made in the last 100 years) are only 36" wide. That means if someone is behind you, you are going to have to either drop or raise your point of aim, spin around and then acquire the target. By then, the person has run up the hallway, is in your face and closer to you than the end of the barrel. Now you have no way of defending yourself with that gun.

Also, if you have to clear room, go around corners, slicing the pie is going to be a real chore, if not impossible when your weapon extends a foot further than the clearance in the hall. To overcome space restrictions, now your weapon is penetrating into the room you need to clear, giving your position away and leaving you open to being disarmed by someone hiding in that room.

So, in my humble opinion the bottom line is, due to over-penetration concerns, easy of use, space restriction, speed/rate of fire, ability to acquire a target, ability to use at 0" distance, ammo capacity, storage for "grey man" purposes in the house, ease of access and several other reasons I just didn't mention, a shotgun is a bad idea for home protection.

You should consider a 9mm or .40 SW semi auto handgun. If you like rifle performance and options, plus don't mind a gun locker in your room, either a 300 Blackout on the M4 platform with a 16" barrel, collapsible stock and 220 grain subsonic rounds, or if you are good with NFA items, same rifle and ammo config in 300 BO, but with a 7.5" barrel and a can or a 9" barrel without a can.

Again, all just my opinion... supported with a little math. YRMV

[WRW]

Doesn't the subsonic round give up the real advantage of the rifle round? Same speeds as pistol rounds with lesser cross section/smaller hole/clumsier in confined spaces?

As I understand birdshot, that massive muzzle energy translates to very little terminal energy for the individual pellets where bird shot is concerned...very little penetration (340 pellets for 7 1/2 shot at your 1300 lbf gives3.82 lbf per pellet). That goes to what dormin was getting at, the size of pellet that would retain sufficient penetration.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[MarcSpaz]

Doesn't the subsonic round give up the real advantage of the rifle round? Same speeds as pistol rounds with lesser cross section/smaller hole/clumsier in confined spaces?

I'm not 100% sure what you are asking... but think I do. If I miss the mark, please let me know.

I just measured a 9mm round and a 300 BO round. The 9mm is 0.347" in dia. and the 300 BO is 0.309" in dia. So, the 300 Blackout round is 90% of the size in dia. of a 9mm round. However, based on ballistics testing done by the DOD, the subsonic 300 BO is just as lethal when comparing to a 9mm, and was adopted over 9mm sub machine gun for some of our most elite fighting teams. Regardless of the size of the hole it makes going in, it does as much damage or more.

Although the ballistic performance of a subsonic 300 BO is similar to a pistol, you don't lose the advantage of a rifle, per se. The benefits of a rifle are going to be in the ability to have better control over the weapon. Having a 3 point bracing position while shooting increases your ability to manage recoil. That keeps you accurate and able to accurately and rapidly deploy follow-up shots, reducing the effort of reacquiring your target, if needed at all.

Other benefits are, 30 round detectable box magazines. This gives you much more ammo capacity for extended shooting between reloads. Think about how many times you would have to stop shooting to reload a shotgun or even most pistols before you fired your 30th round. With multiple attackers, needing to do a slow reload on a shotgun may cost you your life.

Another huge advantage is, if required, the subsonic rounds are lethal on a soft target at mid range distances while keeping a much more flat flight path than 9mm or .40 SW. Engagements on soft targets are possible with repeatable accuracy out to 150-200 yards.

Lets just say you want to be able to get full-blown "rifle" performance out of the same weapon. Well, you are a mag swap away from your hypersonic rounds. Out of a 9" barrel, the 300 BO has more energy than the AK47 with a 16" barrel and an M4/AR15 with a 16" barrel shooting M855's all the way out to 770 yards and matches or surpasses accuracy out to 500 yards. That makes this rifle an excellent mid-range weapon.

So, overall, there is no real sacrifice.

As I understand birdshot, that massive muzzle energy translates to very little terminal energy for the individual pellets where bird shot is concerned...very little penetration (340 pellets for 7 1/2 shot at your 1300 lbf gives 3.82 lbf per pellet). That goes to what dormin was getting at, the size of pellet that would retain sufficient penetration.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

That would be great if you are only talking about a single pellet. The problem is, their energy and affect are cumulative. What has a better chance of killing you. One matchbox car falling on you from 10' above your head or 1,000 matchbox cars falling on you from 10' above your head? I mean, they are only matchbox cars, right? Of course they are fairly insignificant individually and may just make you mad, but getting hit but 1,000 of them at once my just kill you.

Based on this video, it looks like if you hit your target, you may be okay, but a miss is bad for business for someone in another room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97sjv11yesc

[jdonovan]

The birdshot might be lethal eventually, but is absolutely is not RIGHT now lethal and is certainly not incapacitating. And that is what you need in a self defense scenario.

The benchmark for ammunition penetration is 12" in gel. Because thats what it takes to reliably get deep enough into a human, and have enough energy to do something meaningful when a vital structure is hit.

There are 3 and only 3 ways to reliably stop a threat.
Destruction of central nervous systems so brain signals don't reach the muscles.
Destruction of blood vessels, that lead to oxygen deprivation to the brain.
Destruction of major bone structure that prevents the aggressor from moving.

Reaching all of these things takes energy, and that energy is going to blow right the f__k through any normal household material... and in many cases several layers of normal wall material.

100% to 12" is the standard, and based on many tests it's been shown that anyone using less than #4 buck is under loaded.

[WRW]

I know of two ways to get that cumulative effect to the point it would work effectively. One is with muzzle contact or very nearly so. The other would be to add a binder (epoxy or wax etc.). One is risky, the other defeats the purpose of this thread.

I guess a self defense plea is possible out to 150 yards, but damn.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[MarcSpaz]

...There are 3 and only 3 ways to reliably stop a threat.
Destruction of central nervous systems so brain signals don't reach the muscles.
Destruction of blood vessels, that lead to oxygen deprivation to the brain.
Destruction of major bone structure that prevents the aggressor from moving...

QFT...

That applies across the board, to all self defense situations, regardless of the tools at hand. I could talk about the non-firearm relate lethal defense stuff for days.

I know of two ways to get that cumulative effect to the point it would work effectively. One is with muzzle contact or very nearly so. The other would be to add a binder (epoxy or wax etc.). One is risky, the other defeats the purpose of this thread.

I guess a self defense plea is possible out to 150 yards, but damn.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Well, I only mention the lethal ranges for subsonic and hypersonic ammo because it is a combat weapon and can be used for many purposes. Its hard to justify self defense at 150 yards unless you are returning rifle fire from an attacker and cant get away, but man, its handy info in case a bunch of PO'ed North Koreans show up on our eastern shores one day. The high pressure stuff is good for hunting too.

[grumpyMSG]

This thread seems so familiar, so I looked a little and look what I found: http://vagunforum.net/ammunition/home-d ... t5280.html
I thought we had had some of these discussions in the past.

[MarcSpaz]

What old is new again.

[Viper21]

My night time home defense is an 870 loaded with slugs, & arms reach away. I live in the boonies though. No chance of over penetrating a neighbors house, & there is no call the cops & wait it out. When seconds matter, or even a few minutes matter, LE would be 25 minutes away minimum. The ONLY way LE would make it to my house faster, is if by some rare chance, one just happened to be in the area.

[jmax]

As an old detective that handled death by firearms we need to remember that there are three basic elements that generally need to be present for the use of deadly force,
Opportunity to do grievous harm
Ability to do grievous harm
Jepardy that you perceive that grevious harm is immenement

What is important is how one explains jeopardy, it is easier to explain a target load and the intruder said he was going to kill, rape etc. vs. using uncle Fergies super secret zombie killer loads as you yelled April Fools a-hole . Remember this information provided as an excited utterance or after you are Mirandized is admissible in court.

We examined the use of trap target loads fired at spoiled hams and roasts covered by a field jacket at a distance of 5 yards and we're not disappointed with the results.

Remember groups out of a shotgun grow approximately 1 inch per yard of distance. 5 yards is 15 feet and covers most home distances.

Choose carefully what you use and say.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Jeff82]

Testing has shown the best round for self-defense with a shotgun is #1 Buck. It penetrates 12" to 16" reliably in ballistic gelatin and no more, unlike #00 which typically goes 18"+ and #4 which doesn't repeatedly penetrate to 12". Also the pellet load of #1 provides for 30+% more wounding surface area than #00.

The only time you can add individual pellets' energy together is when it is enmass (pellets so close together it acts like a single mass) like when it is a contact wound (in which expanding gas is doing most of the work) or just off a contact wound. Anything longer each pellet stands on it's own. As far as Matchbox cars hitting you unless they all contact you simultaneously as one all you are going to have is a bunch of little red welts. Birdshot might make mince-meat of the first few inches but it will not reliably penetrate far enough to forcibly stop an attacker. At that point you are depending on the attacker's reaction to being shot to stop the attack, you're not actually stopping it yourself. You might as well just depend on the noise of racking the gun to stop the attack. It's the same principle at work.