AR .308/7.62x51 NATO style rifle questions.

[sasquatch92]

Hey all,

So I am currently in the market for a AR .308/7.62x51 NATO style rifle. I currently have my eye on these two:

The DPMS G2 SASS (RFLR-G2SASS)
CALIBER: 308 / 7.62 Nato
LENGTH: 39”
WEIGHT: 10.5lbs
BARREL: 18" 416 Stainless, Teflon coated, Fluted Bull Barrel, Mid Length Gas
UPPER RECEIVER: Forged 7075 T6 lvl 3 Anodized, Teflon coated, A3 type
LOWER RECEIVER: Forged 7075 T6 lvl Anodized, Teflon coated
TWIST: 1x10
STOCK: MagPul® PRS Rifle Stock
FIRE CONTROL: DPMS 2 Stage
PISTOL GRIP: Panther Tactical Grip
FRONT / REAR SIGHT: MagPul® Front and Rear BUIS
FLASH HIDER: None - Panther Flash Hider
HANDGUARD: DPMS 4 Rail Free Float Tube
http://dpms-gii.com/full.html#configurations

The Smith & Wesson M&P 10
Caliber: .308 WIN/7.62 x 51
Action: Gas Operated Semi-Automatic
Capacity: 20 Rounds
Barrel Length: 18” / 45.7 cm
Barrel Twist: 1 in 10” 5R Rifling
Trigger Pull: 6.15 LBS. +/- (2,789.6 g)
Grip: Synthetic
Stock: 6-Position CAR
Overall Length: 40.9” (103.9 cm) Extended / 37.6” (95.5 cm) Collapsed
Weight: 7.71 lbs. / 3,497.3 g
Barrel Material: 4140 Steel
Upper/Lower Material: 7075 T6 Aluminum
Chrome-Lined Components: Gas Key, Bolt Carrier
Finish: Matte Black
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/ ... rrorView_Y


Here is where I find my self introuble, basically I care for 0 of the furnature on the M&P10 (this is from expereince with my M&P 15) and would have to replace all of it and espically a free float rail as well as add some back up sights on it. The DPMS G2 SASS has all the furnature that I would possibley want including the exact iron sights I would get, so all I would have to add is some glass (recomdations would be much apreceated)

Next what kind of life could I expect out of each barrel? They both seem to have completely different types. As for use, honestly it would be range shooting, I would love to get into some long distance shooting using the gun that I pick as well (600yd +) but thats in the future. Not sure exactly how much this would come into play on barrel life, but I generally pick up the cheapest ammo I can find when going to the range, but it is all noncorrosive (mostly tulamo). Also is it possible to replace either barrel?

To add into my requirements,
Barrel length has to be 18 inch
Must be threaded barrel
My budget in total is right around $2,100.00
So from cheaperthandirt.com I can find the DPMS G2 SASS at $1,847.97 and the M&P 10 for $1,340.90

If you all have any other recomendations that fit what I'm looking for that would be awsome
Been attempting to do research on these two but cant get any sort of direct comparison. anything that I do find reguarding the two always seem to have people change the subject and start arguing other stuff.

[MarcSpaz]

You sound exactly like me two years ago. If you really truly are interested in advise and learning from others mistakes... please pay close attention here.

Don't buy an AR. Go buy a not .308 bolt gun if you want to regularly shoot past 350 yards. Semi-auto AR's will do the work if they need to, but AR15's and AR10's were designed with 200 to 350 meters in mind. Bolt guns are the "reach out and touch someone" selection.

If you insist on an AR... I wanted to do exactly what you described. I bought not 1, but 2 DPMS SASS rifles. They both sucked horribly for different reasons. I would never ever recommend a DPMS weapon... sorry, just wouldn't.

Quick review of problems.

1.) Advertised weight is completely striped, no mags, bi-pod, nothing. Actual weight with a scope and full mag was 16.5 lbs. Pretty heavy for a few days in the woods.
2.) On both DPMS rifles, if the barrel was pointing up at an angle, say you were shooting at a target 15 feet above your elevation and 100 yards away... regardless of how well lubed, neither would properly chamber a round after being fired. The buffer spring was way too weak.
3.) Both DPMS rifles would have failure to feed ever 20 or 30 rounds, regardless of angle.
4.) Both DPMS rifles had such jarring recoil that it was almost impossible to shoot accurately, even while prone, and followup shots required physical target re-acquirement.
5.) Both DPMS rifles had such bad recoil, that within 3 trips to the range, any scope I put on them were rattled into not holding zero and needing to be thrown away. (went through 5 scopes)
6.) I had experienced delivery of both DPMS rifles being defective due to poor quality of craftsmanship. Both needed extensive repair before initial use.
7.) There are two basic AR10 platforms, Armalite and DPMS. DPMS parts are used by DPMS, everyone else uses Armalite. This mean DPMS parts are harder to find and parts are not interchangeable with other brands. (found out the hard way.)

The S&W is way over priced for what you are getting. If you are going to build an SASS from a S&W foundation, you can get an 18" bbl AR10 from them in other models from under $1,000... maybe for about $800-$850. You'll need to shop around.

Barrel life is pretty similar from one type to another if you are doing slow firing. They will both give you 15k-20k of shots fired. The big difference comes in during rapid fire and burst/auto fire. The featured designs are really focused around how the barrel heats and cools during use. For long range precision shooting, the chrome barrel is less accurate.

If you want to do this right (in an AR) and only do it once, I would recommend the Sig 716 Patrol, and then add your DMR / SASS furniture. With match grade ammo, in 167-168 grain rounds, you will have a solid rifle good from 0 to 1100-1200 meters.

The Sig will give you an adjustable gas block, allowing for bolt-action like function as well as auto-loading and enhanced suppressed performance with a noise suppressor. Also, the Patrol version has a short-stroke piston. This gives you cooler performance, less fouling of the firing group, and less recoil than the long-stroke piston systems.

There are plenty of other brands out there, but the only other brand I would consider myself would be Armalite, which puts you well into the $3k range for the same performance options as the Sig (about $1500 for DI).

[FiremanBob]

Why not build one from components at Palmetto State Armory?

I have never seen a good price on anything from CTD. And from what I have heard, S&W customer service is terrible if you have an issue.

[M1A4ME]

I don't mind cleaning guns. On a typical range day I might come back to the house and clean 2 or 3 pistols and a couple of rifles.

But, when you've got a lot of guns to clean, cleaning time/effort becomes more important.

Where I'm going with this is the SIG 716 will clean up much faster than most of the AR10 type rifles. The difference is the SIG does not inject gas right back into the bolt/upper receiver every shot, like the DI guns do.

Then again, you'll find that some of the SIG parts (for the gas system and the bolt carrier) are different and you may have more trouble finding them if you every need some.

I don't have a SIG 716. I have a SIG 566R and its had the same lube in the receiver for almost 2 years. I get home, pull the rifle apart, wipe off the locking lugs on the front of the bolt, wipe off/out the locking lug recesses at the barrel, clean the barrel and wipe it down on the outside. I've only cleaned the gas system twice in the last couple of years.

I have several DI AR15's in three different calibers, but I will never buy/build another DI AR15.

Oh, the SIG 556R is not .308, it's 7.62X39. The SIG 716 is .308 Winchester. I sort of looked at the SIG 516 prior to buying the 556R but I have and M1A and a FAL and just didn't need another .308 Win.

[sasquatch92]

Thanky you everyone for your insightfull responces.

So I did some research on the Sig 716, the model that I am most interested in is the Sig DMR version, so for weight alone if they are measuring the same way as DPMS did on their sight, the Sig 716 DMR is a full 2 pounds heavier than the G2 SASS.
I am really looking for a rifle that is under $2,000.00 and has a 18" barrel, the Sig just doesn't have what I'm looking for, I'm sure its a breeze to clean and use but its just too darn expensive to allow me to spend any money on anything else for the weapon system.

There is just one thing that I wanted to point out that I saw the DPMS G2 is not chrome barrel but rather a stainless steel barrel, from which I read is generally what is used for long distance shooting. In that reguard wouldn't I want to stay away from the Sig 716 DMR because from what I have found it is a chrome lined barrel.

Also, I do own a bolt .308, the Savage Axis II xp, which was kind of an impulsive buy.

MarcSpaz,
The quality controll issues that you had did were your DPMS rifles created back when DPMS was its own company or after it was absorbed by Freedom Group? I ask because it seems that the G2 line has almost 0 quality controll issues, that I was able to find with any ease and was developed after Freedom Group took over. Don't get me wrong tho I do realize that DPMS has had a long history of bad issues with quality controll and just general issues.....

Firemanbob,
Thank you so much for the insight about Palmetto State Armory I had never even thought about something like that, now I have to do alot of research on their products. You dont happen to have a link or two for reviews on them do ya? If not thats ok, gives me something to do at work haha.

Again thank you all for your insight and recomendations, as well as any future recomendations or insight by anyone else. Trying to gather as much information as I possibly can before investing so much into a weapons system.

[sasquatch92]

Forgot to ask in my last post, what kind of glass would anyone recommend for a semi auto .308?
Need something that has alot of zoom, got some bad eyesight and alot of my shooting is done indoors where its hard to see with good eyesight anyways.
Price needs to be under $300.00 including a good mount, the scope would never leave this gun but something that would still let me use the irons if needed w/o getting a tool kit out would be best. Granted if I had too I would just keep it in the grip storage.

[grumpyMSG]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I think your expectations/hopes are a little unreasonable. You want a lower end of the price range rifle to shoot long range with cheap ammo. Realistically, you won't be able to do that. Most U.S. military grade ammo is considered acceptable by the military at 2-3 MOA (2-3 at 100 yards), Russian ammo, which has become somewhat harder to find since the Ukraine civil war/Russian funded insurrection and importation restrictions, is going to be even less accurate. That ammo is going to get tougher to find for the foreseeable future. If you insist that is what you want to run, you probably ought to be looking at the piston type rifles. If you are going to run American ammo I wouldn't hesitate to buy a direct impingement type rifle.

You seem to be obsessed with an 18 inch barrel, it is not a concrete requirement to shooting accurately, the British Army's LMT L129A1 Sharpshooter's rifle has a 16 inch barrel and an effective range of about half a mile. Effective meaning being able to hit a man sized target at that range. They do it with a 6X ACOG. It is a big and bulky scope and it costs about 2 grand so I wouldn't recommend it for everyone. I would probably go with one of the Leupold Mark ARs myself.

Personally, I think your $2100 price range is low for a mid to long range .308 AR type rifle a more realistic number would be around $3K with another $500-$1000 for a scope.I also would compare to the SCARs that are available.

[sasquatch92]

GrumpyMSG,
I think I may have been not clear on the ammo, what I ment is that is the kind of ammo I shoot for fun (not performance) at the range because it costs next to nothing. I know that it doesn't have the consistency for long range shooting. The reason I included it is because I have heard some rifles, specifically .308 AR style are very very picky in what they shoot and I didn't want to be limited to only using expensive rounds.
In regards to the 18" barrel, I had that as a stipulation Because the accuracy vs velocity was somewhere in the middle between a 16 inch and 22 inch or so...but I guess I should do some more research.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[MarcSpaz]

I have to agree with Grumpy. You are not going to get a good long range AR cheap. You will be looking at $2,200-$3,200 depending on brand and accessories. Also, good glass with high magnification, you will spend upwards of $1,800. On the low end... probably still $750 for something decent.

As far as the 716 and the chrome lined barrel goes, I was simply explaining the differences. Not talking you out of the chrome barrel. The 716 rifle was designed for noise suppressed full-auto fire. Chrome lining helps keep it cooler longer. As far as accuracy goes, your typical shooter will be well outperformed by the 716. I doubt anyone but legit snipers and world class shooters will notice the performance difference. If you are a great shooter and you are looking to put your second bullet through the first bullet hole at 600 meters... stainless is the way to go.

The piston systems are not just about cleanliness, its about reliability. The cleaner it stays, the less likely you are to have a failure. 100 rounds of DI firing in my 300 BO is more dirty than 2,000 rounds out if my piston driven 516 M4 or 716 AR10. Guess which one is going to stay running longer?

As far as DPMS goes... I don't care who the parent company is or what gen the rifle is. They have the same people working there and I am not interested. They got a long, long way to go to earn my business back. Especially compared to SIG, who has almost 165 years of battle proven weapons, many of the most recent used by US elite fighting forces.

But... I'm a SIG fan-boy, so don't take just my word for it. LOL

This is my DMR... it is good for "minute of man" out to 1,100-1,200 meters. To get this together, I spent about $3,350 for everything.

This rifle can be auto-loading or mimic bolt action with the flip of a switch. This can be handy when you want to shoot long range. The scope is a Nikon P223 3-9x40. The price came down a lot since it was first released. Probably as little as a couple hundred. It was $750 when it was first released and about $450 when I got mine.

http://fiveguysracing.com/marc/Gun_Stuf ... onfig2.jpg

[sasquatch92]

MarcSpaz,
That sir is a beautiful weapon system you have. Something like that is definatly my goal, guess I will continue to save up insted of going with something cheaper that I could afford right now.

Question tho, I understand that the piston system is specific to the Sig but do they make a gas block for DI(non piston?) system that can be tuned like the Sig to allow for a bolt action and semi?

[MarcSpaz]

Thanks for the kudos. I appreciate it.

An adjustable DI gas block is actually a good idea for someone who will do light to moderate use between cleanings. You get the benefit of the switch, but save some money and keep standard (non-proprietary) bolt group.

JP Enterprises makes a very nice adjustable/tunable DI gas block with a 3 position switch on it for about $250. It's only available in a .750 bore, so keep this in mind while barrel shopping if you do go that route.

http://www.jprifles.com/buy.php?item=JPGS-6

[bryanrheem]

As for use, honestly it would be range shooting, I would love to get into some long distance shooting using the gun that I pick as well (600yd +) but thats in the future. Not sure exactly how much this would come into play on barrel life, but I generally pick up the cheapest ammo I can find when going to the range, but it is all noncorrosive (mostly tulamo). Also is it possible to replace either barrel?

Great information shared already! Can't help but notice what you said above as far as it's intended use. If this is JUST for range shooting and long distance shooting, I would personally go as cheap as possible to meet your accuracy requirements. Are you looking to ring man size steel plates at 600 yards, or hit bulls eyes? Is this really just for the range or do you want this to be a SHTF gun as well?

For me personally, I want a 308 SHTF rifle but don't have the cash right now. So instead, while I save money, I went out and purchased a bolt action rifle (as suggested) to satisfy my range need and start learning how to actually shoot long range (Minutes, Inches, Clicks …). Not to say this is what you're looking to do, but I've been down the road of buying a rifle just because that just ended up sitting in my safe because it wasn't what I was actually looking for!

Best of luck!

[jdonovan]

Price needs to be under $300.00

$300 including mount.... you're going to get some chi-com polished ash-tray POS.

Ok, semi-seriously... for $300 I'd spend $200-225 on a Redfield 2-7, or 3-9, and $75 or so on a Burris PEPR. Not my first choice in optics, but you have a budget, and this is probably about as good as you will do for $300.

barrel life. Have no idea where spaz got his numbers, but ACCURATE barrel life on a bolt gun 308 is down in the 5000 rounds. I hang out with the high accuracy bolt gun crowd, and I know of no one who has a > 5000 round barrel that was still under 1 MOA. If you are happy with 3-4 MOA perhaps you might get to 10k.

[MarcSpaz]

JD... I was thinking/talking about AR10... not precision bolt guns. Since the OP was asking about AR10's, pretty much all of my advice is around that platform. AR10 barrels typically start with a 1.5 minute rating. For a battle rifle that is being used at the range, 10k-20k sounds about right to me.

FWIW, My M4 has well over 12,000 rounds through it and it still holds a 1.5 minute group. My AR10 is at about 7,000 rounds and it is shooting tighter... about 1.2 minutes. Again... minute of man rifle... not precision shooting rifle.

Quick edit: Replacement barrels are cheap. If you are not getting the accuracy you want after X amount of shots fired and you feel the barrel is "shot out", couple hundred bucks, re-zero, you're back in business.