At what point is a weapon concealed??

[fixithud]

Not trying to be a smart guy... but.

If my gun is in my pocket, it figure it is concealed. But what about in a owb holster that has a flap over the top. Something like WWII holsters that kept the dirt and junk off of the gun.

Does the weapon need to be identifiable by the general public?

I hope you get the jist of my question and I can get some good feedback.

[ProShooter]

A gun is concealed when it is either (18.2-308 COV):

A) Hidden from common observation, or

B) when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

If its in a holster, you should be fine. Now, that type of holster is not commonly used these days, but my guess is that you would be ok.

[allingeneral]

I would have to say that if it's a full flap that completely covers the weapon, that it could be argued that it is concealed. If any part of the weapon is visible outside the holster such as a part of the grip or the hammer, I would be much more comfortable saying that it's not concealed.

[TheGodfather]

Virginia State Police

"Based on the statute and decisions rendered by the Supreme Court, a weapon is considered to be concealed at any time it is placed in a location as to be within reach of the person, without the person being required to make an overt act to retrieve such weapon, when such weapon is hidden from common observation. Placing a weapon under the seat, on the seat hidden from common observation, or at any location from which the weapon can readily be retrieved is considered to be concealed. A person carrying a weapon in the unlocked glove compartment of an automobile, if the person does not have a permit or otherwise fall within any statutory exemption, is a violation of § 18.2-308(A), unless some particular fact or circumstance renders the weapon inaccessible."

[studyinthelaw]

sorry to open this old thread up but hoped that someone could help me with this; I see this quote from the VA State Police regarding a supreme court decision on how an Overt Act is required to delineate between Concealed Carry and simple transport. That text can be found in this PDF http://www.vsp.state.va.us/downloads/20 ... 20Laws.pdf but I cannot find any mention of what that case was.

Does anyone know of the case being referenced?

[newdovo]

One thing of note is that document is from 2005, and the law has been revised since then. Pertaining to handguns, here is a change noted on the VA State Police website:

As of July 1, 2010, a concealed handgun permit is not necessary when carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel.

Note that it states "secured", not locked. So glove box or console carry is OK, without the need for a concealed carry permit.

[studyinthelaw]

One thing of note is that document is from 2005, and the law has been revised since then.

Indeed, the "container law" is great, but the definition of "concealed" outside of a car is still governed by the above Supreme Court decision which is eluding me.

[newdovo]

...the definition of "concealed" outside of a car is still governed by the above Supreme Court decision which is eluding me.

I was assuming that the transporting, and potential for concealment, was being done in a vehicle. Again, the specific area of code noted has to do with transporting firearms. Here's the rest of 18.2-308 that discusses when it's lawful to carry concealed.
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... d+18.2-308
I realize that this doesn't give specific reference to the Supreme Court's opinion on what an overt act is.
What, specifically, do you want to do?
I would think that walking down the street with a gun in a backpack would be considered concealed, even if you had to go through the overt act of taking off the back pack, unbuckling/unzipping it, and taking the gun out of a gun sock. I'm thinking that a gun that is hidden from observation, on or about your person, would be considered concealed.
I am not a lawyer, but maybe one will chime in with something other than an opinion.

[studyinthelaw]

What, specifically, do you want to do?

I want to know the law

But I'll give you a great example; carrying a rifle case with a rifle in it (loaded or unloaded) in public. Perhaps walking to your car to transport it to your friend's place to do some gunsmithing. This could be deemed "on or about one's person" in my interpretation of the law and the destination it's traveling to or from is not in the VA exempted list.

Surely this is legal, but it seems that this supreme court decision is where this legality is clearly defined. I see no legal difference between a rifle in a gun case and a handgun in a backpack (except the latter is protected by possessing a CHP).

[wally626]

A gun in a case is a concealed weapon. You can however carry a concealed weapon on your own property, so unless you need to leave your property to get to your transportation you are covered. Taking the gun to get worked on, hunting, target shooting at an established range in the trunk of your car or cased and out of reach, is also fine. As well as a handgun in a closed container anywhere in the car now.

The current law would exclude things like going to a friends to shoot in his back yard, etc. In that case to stay strictly within the law you would need to uncase the gun when removing it from the car and open carry it on your friends property or have your friend carry it. Also if you had to go off your property to obtain transportation it would need to be open carried at that point.

[studyinthelaw]

A gun in a case is a concealed weapon.

Supposedly the supreme court disagrees. I'm looking for that decision. But outside of that decision and with how the law reads, I tend to believe that your interpretation would hold up in court.

[wally626]

You can search the Supreme Court database at http://www.courts.state.va.us/search/textopinions.html from 1995 to present. The cases referred to by the state poice page may be before 1995. I think the concealed carry mentioned in the state police page probably applies to carry in cars more than in cases while walking.

I think the overt act mention also refers more to having to get out of the car and open the trunk or crawl over the back seat etc. more than unzipping a bag. Also police web sites are not authoritative, just the departments restatement of the law. Just an opinion IANAL

The supreme court cases are actually very readable and you may find a reference to an older case that covers what you are looking for. http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/ ... 074072.pdf for instance has a very good discussion of what constitutes a knife being a weapon. Most of what I can remember, from reading some cases, had to do with could the gun be viewed while it was in the car or whether it was a weapon or not (mostly knives). I do not remember coming across any about cases carry outside of vehicles.

[wally626]

Found this tidbit on purse carry

Since 1909, our Supreme Court has maintained that for a firearm to be “about the person” it must be “so connected with the person as to be readily accessible for use or surprise if desired.” Sutherland, 109 Va. at 835, 65 S.E. at 15; accord Schaaf v. Commonwealth, 220 Va. 429, 431, 258 S.E.2d 574, 575 (1979); Pruitt v. Commonwealth, 274 Va. 382, 387-88, 650 S.E.2d 684, 686 (2007). This Court has applied the same standard. Leith v. Commonwealth, 17 Va. App. 620, 622, 440 S.E.2d 152, 153 (1994); Watson v. Commonwealth, 17 Va. App. 124, 126, 435 S.E.2d 428, 429 (1993).
In Sutherland, our Supreme Court held that a pistol concealed in a saddlebag and carried by the defendant was not “about his person” as required by the statute. Sutherland, 109 Va. at 835, 65 S.E. at 15. Some seventy years later, the Supreme Court “distinguish[ed] and narrow[ed],” Pruitt, 274 Va. at 388, 650 S.E.2d at 686, its holding in Sutherland by ruling that a firearm concealed in a purse and carried by the defendant was “about her person” as required by the statute. Schaaf, 220 Va. at 431-32, 258 S.E.2d at 575. The Court reasoned that “a handbag
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was usually carried closer to the defendant’s person than was a saddlebag and was of a character that its contents were more readily accessible.” Pruitt, 274 Va. at 388, 650 S.E.2d at 686

from http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/ ... 989082.pdf

[studyinthelaw]

GREAT find, wally. There is some very specific language in there:

The purpose of the concealed weapons statute is "to interdict the practice of carrying a deadly weapon about the person, concealed, and yet so accessible as to afford prompt and immediate use." Schaaf, 220 Va. at 430, 258 S.E.2d at 574-75 (quoting Sutherland, 109 Va. at 835, 65 S.E. at 15).

Further, this Court has held that a firearm that was located underneath the driver’s side floormat was about the driver’s person because it was readily accessible to the driver “without much difficulty” and “with only the slightest movement.”

Since 1909, our Supreme Court has maintained that for a firearm to be “about the person” it must be “so connected with the person as to be readily accessible for use or surprise if desired.”

[zephyp]

I dont think that an unloaded gun in a case is considered a concealed weapon. An unloaded and cased gun is useless for anything but a club...