What should be done about toy guns?

[OakRidgeStars]

Ohio pushing for new toy gun law

http://www.wtov9.com/shared/news/featur ... 6057.shtml

[Swampman]

Don't see a problem with making them easily identifiable, say, a different color. Then make sure gun manufacturers don't make any guns that color, not even a slightly different shade. Lots of toy guns look real these days. That cop has to live with shooting an unarmed 12 year old. That sucks.

[SHMIV]

Instead of regulating the manufacturers of toy guns, let's teach our children not to wave objects that look like guns at police officers.

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[ShotgunBlast]

New surveillance suggests that police might want to revisit their "shoot first, ask questions later" approach.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/11/26/polic ... -cleveland

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[Palladin]

Instead of regulating the manufacturers of toy guns, let's teach our children not to wave objects that look like guns at police officers.

this this this

what he said

+1 ( X 10)

et cetera

[Palladin]

New surveillance suggests that police might want to revisit their "shoot first, ask questions later" approach.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/11/26/polic ... -cleveland

Sure looks like he drew it to me. He strides purposefully towards the cruiser, left hand goes to waistband, right hand pulls the gun, body leans forward as he draws. If the LEO was acting with the scrabble to the rear of the cruiser, he sure did a good job. Hard to second guess what was going on in the LEOs mind. I wish he had tackled him instead... heck I wish the kid had turned around and plastered himself on the bus stop pole with his hands up. Maybe that would have given the officer time to get his feces together.

woulda shoulda coulda

[Swampman]

Instead of regulating the manufacturers of toy guns, let's teach our children not to wave objects that look like guns at police officers.

I would agree if it weren't for rap, 93% of blacks killing blacks, or let's just say urban black culture in America. A lot of these kids don't have two parents in the home. Hell, they don't even know who their daddy is. Besides, welfare laws prohibit having a man in the house.

[dusterdude]

Havent seen the video,but i must ask,dont cops carry tazers and would it have been able to have been used in this case

[ShotgunBlast]

New surveillance suggests that police might want to revisit their "shoot first, ask questions later" approach.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/11/26/polic ... -cleveland

Sure looks like he drew it to me. He strides purposefully towards the cruiser, left hand goes to waistband, right hand pulls the gun, body leans forward as he draws. If the LEO was acting with the scrabble to the rear of the cruiser, he sure did a good job. Hard to second guess what was going on in the LEOs mind. I wish he had tackled him instead... heck I wish the kid had turned around and plastered himself on the bus stop pole with his hands up. Maybe that would have given the officer time to get his feces together.

woulda shoulda coulda

Dang, looks like you're able to CSI enhance that video to get all that. I don't have those capabilities, but I do know this:

1. It was a kid in this situation. Not a Michael Brown "kid", but an actual child.

2. 911 caller even said it was probably fake and that the person was a juvenile. Sure cops can't assume it's just a toy when responding to the call, but if they did get all of the information when responding maybe their tactics would have been different.

3. Speaking of tactics, they drove right up to him on what looks to be a snow-covered grassy area. How about creating some distance if you know you could be dealing with a lethal situation.

4. Passenger officer shot the kid and was down before the driver could even get their door open. The officer had been on the force less than a year.

When you were 12 were you taught to turn around and put your hands up when a police officer came around? I sure wasn't. Poor police judgement got this kid killed.

[mamabearCali]

If there was a case to protest over it is this one. He was just a kid. A real kid playing like kids do. Stupidity should not have to be lethal at that age.

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[MarcSpaz]

If there was a case to protest over it is this one. He was just a kid. A real kid playing like kids do. Stupidity should not have to be lethal at that age.

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Most of the gang related crimes around here are done by kids between 10 and 15. They are used by the older members so they can stay out of jail and keep doing business. With 12 and 15 year old kids running around with real guns, right here in Woodbridge, I have to assume its the same elsewhere in the country. Police know this obviously. They are not going to take a chance on a kid with a gun just because he looks like he can't shave yet.

Havent seen the video,but i must ask,dont cops carry tazers and would it have been able to have been used in this case

I'm not bringing a tazer to a gun fight... just sayin'.

New surveillance suggests that police might want to revisit their "shoot first, ask questions later" approach.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/11/26/polic ... -cleveland

Sure looks like he drew it to me. He strides purposefully towards the cruiser, left hand goes to waistband, right hand pulls the gun, body leans forward as he draws. If the LEO was acting with the scrabble to the rear of the cruiser, he sure did a good job. Hard to second guess what was going on in the LEOs mind. I wish he had tackled him instead... heck I wish the kid had turned around and plastered himself on the bus stop pole with his hands up. Maybe that would have given the officer time to get his feces together.

woulda shoulda coulda

No way in hell I'm going to try to tackle someone with a gun unless I am behind them, have the element of surprise, and there is a clear physical advantage for me.

Looks like a clean shoot to me too. Kid very obviously went to the waistband and started to draw his weapon.

So, see if you follow my thinking. Completely alone. Waving a gun around getting attention in a public place. Kids sitting their waiting for something... not really doing anything. He sees the police car coming and gets up, approaches them and drew his weapon as the car was pulling up.

Sounds like suicide by cop if you ask me. I'm not a shrink, but I would look deep into that kids life to see if there was problems at home or bullying in school or by local gangs.

Dang, looks like you're able to CSI enhance that video to get all that. I don't have those capabilities, but I do know this:

1. It was a kid in this situation. Not a Michael Brown "kid", but an actual child.

Sucks... no question about that.

2. 911 caller even said it was probably fake and that the person was a juvenile. Sure cops can't assume it's just a toy when responding to the call, but if they did get all of the information when responding maybe their tactics would have been different.

Have to agree there too.

3. Speaking of tactics, they drove right up to him on what looks to be a snow-covered grassy area. How about creating some distance if you know you could be dealing with a lethal situation.

3 for 3 so far.

4. Passenger officer shot the kid and was down before the driver could even get their door open. The officer had been on the force less than a year.

When you were 12 were you taught to turn around and put your hands up when a police officer came around? I sure wasn't. Poor police judgement got this kid killed.

Here is where you lost me.

I didn't see any problem with the passenger's response. The driver put the passenger in a bad spot just feet away from "someone with a gun". I think it was quick thinking and he did what he needed to do to stay alive. Keep in mind, they don't know what's going on yet, so that was a life or death situation. Screw-up was on the driver.

When I was a very young man, maybe 3 or 4, I remember always being taught to respect police officers, never make sudden moves or put my hands in my pockets, because a policeman doesn't know who's a good guy and who's a bad guy.

[mamabearCali]

I understand there are bad kids....but kids play with toy guns too. A child who had not lost all his baby teeth should not have to fear being shot while playing. I really would rather the LEO exercise a little more patience in that situation. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Legally it is a good shoot, but if he had given orders from a place of cover he might not have killed a boy with a toy.

All that said I do teach my kids at around age 5 that if a LEO tells them to do something they are to comply immediately then once thing have calmed down they are to sit quietly and ask persistently for their parents. Sad that I have to do so but it is what it is.

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[MarcSpaz]

I understand what you are saying and I fully agree. We don't want to lose kids who play with toy guns. However, being a father, I can honestly say that there is a huge responsibility on the parents in cases like this... not the police. Let me explain why I feel this way.

It looks pretty dark in the video. I don't know what time it was recorded, but why the heck is a 12 year old running around alone? He is not with friends, older siblings, just completely alone at a park. That screams parenting problem to me out of the gate.

AirSoft guns, BB and Pellet guns, and modern firearms are all legally classified as a firearm. As such, only an adult can purchase them by law. Any minor under a specific age must be supervised when handling a firearm, even on private property. That age varies from state to state, but I am sure in near every case, 12 is inside the age of requiring supervision.

A parent or other adult purchased that weapon and let that child leave the house with it while unchaperoned, either directly and intentionally or through negligent storage. Either that, or like many other guns on the street, it was stolen. Again, still a parenting problem when the youth is 12.

As a responsible adult, my kids have never had toy guns, but have had real guns from a very young age. I spent a tremendous amount of time teaching them about safety, finality and technique of using a firearm. My kids never ever handle or have access to any firearms without my consent. I will never have the problem of burying one of my kids because they were pointing a toy gun at a cop.

Now, lets completely and totally take parenting and guns out of the equation. Lets say the kid had a bright red pencil case that he was carrying in his waist line under his sweater. The police arrive to a "subject with a gun" call. As the police pull up, the only person to be found is this kid who is purposefully approaching the police car, lifting his sweater and going for "something" in his waistline. You know as well as I do, that kids is still gonna die.

Fractions of a second to wait and see means you (as the police officer) could die instead of the perp, and they are not going to take that risk. I wouldn't hesitate and I wouldn't blame the LEO's either.

Like I said. The whole situation sucks. Bad parenting was likely a big contributor, and the LEO driver put his partner in serious danger (perceived or otherwise) which left a kid dead.

Is there something we can do to prevent future problems? Of course. There is something to be learned by parents and PD's from this incident.

[scott9050]

The reason things such as this did not happen in the past is because instead of having the liberal mentality of demonizing guns in every way possible, we actually taught kids gun safety in schools, churches, scouts etc. I was taught at age 5 how to shoot and the what and what nots of firearms safety. All of that and the healthy respect for firearms that we had at that age has been replace with ignorance and trying to emulate TV and popular culture. Does anyone else believe that if this kid had been taught properly that maybe the outcome might have been different? I certainly do.

[Palladin]

...When you were 12 were you taught to turn around and put your hands up when a police officer came around? I sure wasn't. Poor police judgement got this kid killed.

When I was twelve, and for many years before, I was taught to greet them with a smile and a firm handshake with eye contact whenever they came around. Many of my family's friends were state troopers and sheriff's deputies. I was taught they were good, honest people with the community's best interests at heart.
So yeah, you've got me there - guess I forgot to "check my privilege".

I don't like any part of the situation of the OP... I'm just saying I understand how it happened.

[MarcSpaz]

Watch this video in full screen. It is more of the surveillance video showing the behavior of the 12 year old, which obviously explains the police arriving. It also has an enhanced zoom so those of you who could not see before, you can very obviously see him dram a weapon from his waist in this video.

http://news.yahoo.com/cleveland-release ... 12912.html

[mamabearCali]

Man...that is awful. Dang it. Why didn't someone, anyone tell that boy not to play like that. Lethal stupidity.

That gun looked quite real there. The only however is that a child with a real gun and up to no good would likely not be playing around like that. But that is just a guess.

Looks like an "awful but lawful." Hitting my head on the wall.

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[Kreutz]

I'm just curious why the cops rolled right up on the person; wouldn't stopping away from the target be safer for everyone involved, and allow the use of the bullhorn to give a chance to disarm and get on the ground?

I mean, it seems safer and easier in the long run to keep some distance from the first contact.

[WRW]

I'm just curious why the cops rolled right up on the person; wouldn't stopping away from the target be safer for everyone involved, and allow the use of the bullhorn to give a chance to disarm and get on the ground?

I mean, it seems safer and easier in the long run to keep some distance from the first contact.

Partner been "visiting" the driver's wife?

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[FiremanBob]

This is the logical consequence of the violence- and crime-worshipping subculture that the Democrats have built on their plantation for their black "slave voters". The word "tragic", which generally has been misused in recent years, actually does apply to this incident. Both the boy and the cop were following the moral codes and training that they received from their respective moral authorities. As such, they are archetypes representing the conflict of their cultures.

What are these larger cultural conflicts?

Black gang subculture, glorifying violence, crime and false bravado against decent citizens. When criminals, rather than honorably working fathers, are the kids' role models, this is what you get.
Cop subculture trained by experience to regard even children this young as gang members, because many in fact are.
Cop subculture in the past ten years or so trained to demand "respect my authorita" (as Cartman would say) in the most tyrannical fashion and use maximum violence on anyone who does not immediately comply.

When I was a kid, we ran all over the neighborhood with our black or silver cap guns, playing cowboys and indians, cops and bootleggers, or WWII re-enactments. The cops didn't bother with us, probably because it would never have entered our minds to take our cap guns and try to roll over a neighborhood store.

As I said about Michael Brown, the boy grew up to be exactly what his momma raised him to be. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

The solutions are simple, but not easy. Leftists love to talk about "root causes", but they misconstrue what are the root causes to support their propaganda. Poverty and crime are not the root causes - they are results. False "entitlement", idleness, dependency, and resentment are. The urban black subculture will disappear when those people are made free to build their own lives by earning their own wealth, and thereby to participate in decent society equally with the rest of us taxpayers.