question pertaining to open carry Vs. concealed carry

[Diggs27]

Hello all. I purchased my first pistol today, and want to express my rights by carrying. I recently moved from NJ; where it was almost impossible for any "common" citizen to get a permit to carry. I am a little confused as to the whole Open/concealed carry thing. At what point does open carry become concealed? If I were to wera a tucked in T-shirt and just tuck the gun into my waistband, would that be considered open carry?? Is there any requirements as to how much of the gun (or holster) needs to be showing before it becomes concealed? I did take my CHP paperwork into the county clerks office, but due to the fact of me living in a very rural county in the mountains, the paperwork had to get sent over to the neighboring county since we do not have a resident judge. It has been about a week and a half now, so hoping to hear something soon. I just do not want to take the meaning of the laws wrong, and get in trouble for having a concealed firearm with no permit. Any assistance with this would be greatly appreciated.

[SHMIV]

I just carry mine in a holster on my belt. I think the general rule is that the butt remain visible.

I also make sure that nothing drapes over it (jacket, backpack, shopping bag, etc.), otherwise it would no longer be in "common observation".

Of course, once you have your permit, none of that matters, anymore. I don't have a permit, so I remain conscious of these things.

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[MarcSpaz]

A gun (or any other weapon) is considered concealed when "hidden from common observation". The code of VA defines "hidden from common observation" as follows...

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp50 ... d+18.2-308

§ 18.2-308. Carrying concealed weapons; exceptions; penalty.

...a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature...

Hope this helps.

[FiremanBob]

If you "just tuck" a handgun in your waistband, you fail the IQ test required to carry it. A handgun must be carried in some sort of holster that covers the entire trigger guard to protect the trigger from being snagged on something that would cause a negligent discharge. Does the name Plaxico Burress mean anything to you?

Note I do not call it "accidental" because not using a holster is negligence in the first place.

Note also that there is a difference between exercising your rights and expressing them. Most people who want to "express" the 2A rights in public are Delta Bravos who want to call attention to themselves. They end up starting verbal altercations with other people which might make them feel big, strong and free, but actually make them look like aggressive fools and give us all a bad name. I hope, therefore, that "expressing" is not what you really meant. A firearm is a tool, not a prop.

[Diggs27]

Thank you for the replies.... especially you fireman bob. When I went back and reread my original post, I can understand exactly what you were referring to. First off, if I were to tuck it into the waistband; I would definitely use some kind of IWB holster for it. I am not some young "gang-banger" who is just going to grab the gun and go. I am a responsible adult who chooses to carry. Secondly, I do see where you come from explaining the difference between exercising my 2A rights and expressing them. I want to exercise this right..... maybe that part was just a bad choice of words coming off a 12 hour shift from work. So; more or less; if any part of the gun is exposed; it is still open carry?? Was just curious because on some state's websites; they say that as long as the butt of the gun is exposed; some even say that at least 1/3 of the trigger gaurd needs to be exposed, but did not see anything definitive on the VA state page.

[FiremanBob]

You won't see anything definitive on the state page. It's always good to avoid misunderstandings with our fine police officers and deputies (no sarcasm - nearly every cop I have encountered in VA has been a total pro and a decent human being). If I were going to open carry, I'd wear an OWB holster of some non-obtrusive design like a nice leather pancake with some effective form of retention, and be sure my shirt is tucked in.

We are a shall-issue state, and the statutory maximum time to process your permit is 45 days. It might feel like forever before yours arrives, but it really isn't that long. Then you can search for and read the fun-filled threads arguing about whether open or concealed is better...(don't start a new one, it's worse than arguments about which cleaning solvent is best)

[SHMIV]

As long as the butt is exposed, you should be fine. My holster leaves the butt and the hammer exposed, but no part of the trigger guard. I've been eyed suspiciously by LEO, commended by LEO, and even ignored by the Deputy Sherriff in Walmart while OC'ing. But never had any actual trouble.

Myself, I prefer OWB holsters, over the IWB. Mainly, because it seems harder for anyone to claim I was concealing it, or that I had any intent to do so. But, that's just my preference.

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[trailrunner]

Use the reference that Marc provided. You won't find a definitive definition. Instead, it is based on whether or not a common person could see the gun and realize that it's a gun.

But as others have said, I'd err on the side of full disclosure, so I'd wear an OWB holster and ensure that my clothes do not cover it up (which might be more difficult as we get into winter). I personally would not go IWB for OC.

Some of this also might depend on where you live. I live in northern VA; they tend not to be gun friendly, and I could be punished for the slightest infraction, so I would be careful. OTOH, if you live in a more rural area, you may get the benefit of the doubt in an ambiguous situation.

[Diggs27]

I do live in a very rural area.... Highland County. very mountainous and borders West Virginia. I am about an hour west of Harrisonburg/Staunton area

[trailrunner]

Having said that - even though you live in a rural area, don't take that to mean that you can be careless or push the limit of the law. I was just giving general guidance. I am not a lawyer!

[ProShooter]

A class may be helpful here.....

[Sulli]

I believe a lot of people open carry guns in such a manner that it is detrimental to the pro-gun folks. We work hard to try to express our rights to carry firearms and in most states it is not difficult to obtain a Concealed Carry Permit (CCP). Some people would rather expose the weapon in "Open Carry" to show they can, which causes the normal public and some law enforcement officers to be nervous when the firearm is in sight. Why not just apply and obtain a CCP to carry the firearm. I have carried a concealed weapon for over 40 years and people don't even know I am carrying. When I talk about me having a concealed weapon, I always say the reason they didn't know I was carrying was because it was "CONCEALED" which is the purpose. Why cause confrontations which are bad for our goals of possessing and carrying firearms. There are a lot of people that are on the fence between being Pro-gun and Anti-gun; idiots that open carry just to show off their guns cause many of the public to become Anti-gun because they are afraid of idiots carrying guns. I have seen many negative examples of "Open Carry" in the past few weeks. The other day as I was driving to the food market I observed a very large young man walking up the street wearing sweat pants and a sweat shirt. Hanging from the pocket of his sweat pants was a holstered semi-automatic pistol which was just bouncing around because of the heavy gun on the loose material. The manner in which this person was carrying the gun was very unprofessional and careless. These type people only use open carry to show off that they have a gun; they don't care that they are causing more problems for pro-gun advocates.

[2k05gt]

These type people only use open carry to show off that they have a gun; they don't care that they are causing more problems for pro-gun advocates.

100%

this is why I DO NOT Open Carry, I feel uncomfortable with people staring at me, pointing fingers and so on..
I really believe if you are open carrying you are looking for trouble or trying to create conflict or strife with the people around you.
Do us all a favor, get a Concealed Carry permit and conceal it please

[MarcSpaz]

I think if you are going to open carry, do it correctly. If you are just trying to get attention and make a scene, that definitely doesn't do anything for anyone. But its completely unfair to force people to conceal carry because others are uneducated and afraid. If you choose to CC or OC, that is your prerogative, but if you choose to CC, that doesn't mean everyone who OC's is bad for business and harms the cause.

What about people who just don't want Big Brother in their business and value their freedom, so becoming a registered gun owner (by getting a permit) is not desirable?

What about people who may be in a situation where there is an expectation that they may need to draw quickly to defend themselves and burying their weapon under a couple of layers of close will significantly inhibit their ability to defend themselves quickly?

What about people who carry a full-size handgun because they have large hands and it enables them to maintain better control of the weapon compared to a small firearm, but its too big to CC?

Or people who's defense weapon is just too damn big to shove down their pants while being comfortable?

Or their pants wont stay up due to the weight of the weapon and the belt they are wearing is no longer working correctly because there is a gun in their waist band?

And that is just a small reason why good people don't need someone else telling them how to live. Doesn't matter if it a politician or YOU... infringing on freedom because of your opinion is wrong.

Scott... you know I love you buddy... but you remind me of this cartoon.

[SHMIV]

A few years ago, I was living off than $400 a pay period, and that was on a good pay period. Sometimes, things were slow, and I had closer to $200 paychecks. It was during that period that I decided that I wanted to exercise my 2A right to bear arms. I borrowed $120 from a friend, and bought a Heritage Arms Rough Rider .22, single action revolver. I got a cheap nylon holster to carry it in. It took me 3 pay periods (6 weeks) to pay my buddy back, and even though I was already living predominantly off of Ramen, and scraps of fruit from work, I still went to bed hungry a few nights while I was paying off that $120 debt.

2k05gt, are you suggesting that since I couldn't swing the finances in order to carry concealed, that I should not have carried at all? I wasn't looking for trouble; I was broke. Further, how dare you assert that I am looking for trouble simply because I choose to openly carry? You don't know me well enough to make such a discernment.

I have made the case, more than once, in defense of open carry, on this forum. Clearly, you've either not read those posts, or chosen to ignore them.

Financially, I suppose that I could go forth and jump through the hoops that are required to carry concealed. But, I have no intent to do so. While open carry was the only feasible option for me,in the beginning, now I have other reasons to support the practice.

First, it was pointed out to me (and I have to agree) that the notion of paying fees and begging permission to exercise a Constitutional right is despicable. Second, I value my privacy; I view the licensing process as an unnecessary window into my personal life.

Then there's this: most American's that are not gun-owners fall into 3 groups; felons, anti-gun folks, and those that really don't care one way or the other. Felons and anti-gunners aren't my concern, but those "fence-sitters" are. That group will hear about gun violence on the news, and read about it in the papers. Then, when they hear about "common sense gun laws", they say "Sure, why not?". If they spend time in the presence of gun-owners, they don't know about it, except maybe that they guy across the street goes hunting sometimes.

I suppose that maybe I do want to send a message when I open carry: normal people carry guns. Thus, I try to dress and behave accordingly. We need for the fence sitting crowd to see average American's carrying guns, as they go about normal daily business. That way, when a group of Texans show up to Starbucks dressed in tactical wear and brandishing scary looking rifles, as if they were
fixxin to go to battle, all gun-owners can't reasonably be branded as battle hungry loons.

If anything, it's the practice of HIDING guns, as if they were some taboo object worthy of shame, that is hurting us. But, I understand that there are perfectly legitimate reasons to carry concealed, just like there are perfectly legitimate reasons to carry openly.

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[Roverhound]

I open carry because I refuse to alter my wardrobe to accommodate my firearm. The only comments I have gotten have been positive.
It's surprising how many people don't even realize you are carrying.
I have my permit just for the purpose that it allows me to carry some places that OC is not allowed. Mainly the national forest where I spend a lot of time camping and fishing.
Just remember to those of you who are anti OC, OC is a right, CC is a privilege.

[AlanM]

I OC nearly every the time I leave the house. I have my VA CHP but never really dress to be concealed.
If I have to disarm I have a lock box in my car to store the gun.
However, if I happen to wear an over shirt or jacket that would hide my carry gun I'm legal.

[SHMIV]

@Roverhound: I realize that CC is treated as a privilege by our legal systems, but it is actually a right. I base this assertion on the text of the Second Amendment. If you read it, you will find absolutely no prescription for the acceptable way of bearing arms.

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[MarcSpaz]

@Roverhound: I realize that CC is treated as a privilege by our legal systems, but it is actually a right. I base this assertion on the text of the Second Amendment. If you read it, you will find absolutely no prescription for the acceptable way of bearing arms.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Actually, you will. It's implied in the part that says your right to keep and bear arms "shall not be infringed".

See, when the Second Amendment was written, the word bear meant the same thing as it does now... when used while discussing a person, it means to carry.

Ironically enough, the meaning of the word "infringe" has not changed either. It means to limit.

Lets look at the Second Amendment in a sentence explaining what it really means.

What is says: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

What it means: For society to function as expected, which is to live in freedom of oppression or control, the natural, God given write for people to own and carry weapons shall not be limited. No caveat, exclusions or exceptions and includes all weapons from the past, present and future.

If anyone reads the Second Amendment and doesn't read it that way... then you are a fool in denial, because in many other document written by the Founding Fathers, (more specifically James Madison) they spend many, many hand written paragraphs explaining just that. If you haven't read the Federalist Papers... you should.

James Madison spells out very specifically that the Second Amendment was written to protect individual rights and to deter governmental tyranny. He also explains when the Bill of Rights was introduced that the purpose of the Second Amendment was to protect individual rights, not State or Federal rights.

[Roverhound]

@Roverhound: I realize that CC is treated as a privilege by our legal systems, but it is actually a right. I base this assertion on the text of the Second Amendment. If you read it, you will find absolutely no prescription for the acceptable way of bearing arms.

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How can you treat it as a right when your very words say our legal system treats it as a privilege? When you have to go to the state, take a course, pay a fee and pass a check how is that a right?
To open carry all I have to do is own a gun.