Govt Workers Cost 45% More Than Private Sector Workers

[dorminWS]

Looks to me like we need to worry about getting a law through Congress that Government pay may not exceed pay levels for Private employment. I don't know how you'd keep the bureaucrats from cheating, but this is the most galling bullsh!t I've run across in a while. Since they have absolutely iron-bound job security, they should probably get paid less; since they damned sure DO less. Of course, before we cut their pay, we need to lay off about 10% of them across the board. I'll guarantee you there isn't a government agency anywhere that couldn't reduce its workforce by 10% and never miss them. Oh, and by the way, while we're at it, we need to ABOLISH AND ELIMINATE several entire agencies and Cabinets of the federal government. That would be a modest but positive START at putting the Republic to rights again.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government ... ate-Sector

[WRW]

Looks to me like we need to worry about getting a law through Congress that Government pay may not exceed pay levels for Private employment. I don't know how you'd keep the bureaucrats from cheating, but this is the most galling bullsh!t I've run across in a while. Since they have absolutely iron-bound job security, they should probably get paid less; since they damned sure DO less. Of course, before we cut their pay, we need to lay off about 10% of them across the board. I'll guarantee you there isn't a government agency anywhere that couldn't reduce its workforce by 10% and never miss them. Oh, and by the way, while we're at it, we need to ABOLISH AND ELIMINATE several entire agencies and Cabinets of the federal government. That would be a modest but positive START at putting the Republic to rights again.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government ... Government ... ate-Sector</a><!-- m -->

Keep going, I'm patting' my foot.

I remember when the complaint was that gov't. work paid less than the private sector and they just couldn't get good help. Think the current pay scale fixed that problem?

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[dorminWS]

Keep going, I'm patting' my foot.

I remember when the complaint was that gov't. work paid less than the private sector and they just couldn't get good help. Think the current pay scale fixed that problem?

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Why, HELL NO, I don't.

When ANYBODY, much less government, raises pay and keeps the same people, they get pretty much the same performance with perhaps some enhancement in isolated cases. The only way increasing pay gets you better people is when it lets you attract a better person to begin with. The only exception to that is people who are paid on commission or otherwise have their pay tied directly to their productivity; and even then you have to have a good person to begin with. Since government "productivity" is an oxymoron, raising wages for government workers is a complete waste as far as getting better people or better work performed is concerned. Besides, I'm a firm believer that we don't need BETTER government (there's another oxymoron) - - we just need LESS government.

[Viper21]

If I could only make one change in our government, it would be term limits for congress/senate.

If I could make another change it would be to abolish the IRS

[dorminWS]

If I could only make one change in our government, it would be term limits for congress/senate.

If I could make another change it would be to abolish the IRS

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That, plus no campaign funds should be allowed to be given by a Congressman who has term-limited out to any candidate for any office. Any accumulated political war chest funds left at the end of a Congressman's last allowable term should be required to be paid into the treasury and be used to directly retire federal debt. Access to big money is one of the big things that makes an incumbent so hard to beat, so we don't want the outgoing politician to pass on a wad of money to his hand-picked successor.

[trailrunner]

Looks to me like we need to worry about getting a law through Congress that Government pay may not exceed pay levels for Private employment. I don't know how you'd keep the bureaucrats from cheating, but this is the most galling bullsh!t I've run across in a while. Since they have absolutely iron-bound job security, they should probably get paid less; since they damned sure DO less. Of course, before we cut their pay, we need to lay off about 10% of them across the board.

You're painting with a pretty broad brush here. I have experience in both the private sector and the government sector and have seen both sides.

I took a pay cut to work for the government, including salary, benefits, and vacation. I brought a colleague (one of the best and brightest) from my previous job over to the government; he also took a pay cut, and after three years, he went back to his former job. Besides the across-the-board pay cut he took when he came to government, last spring he was facing furloughs (like I was), and he decided that it just wasn't worth it any more, so he went back to our former employer to regain the money (pay and benefits) that he was making before.

As a government employee, I work harder and longer than I did in my previous job, I have a lot more responsibility, yet I get paid less.

As far as your claim of iron-clad job security goes, that's simply not true. We fired somebody a year or two ago, and also shed some other people recently, and we are getting close to doing this to several others.

We do have a law that caps our pay.

When ANYBODY, much less government, raises pay and keeps the same people, they get pretty much the same performance with perhaps some enhancement in isolated cases.

We have a pay-for-preformance in my agency, so pay is correlated to performance. However, this past year, everyone got the same raise regardless of performance, because that raise was ZERO. On top of that, we got furloughed last summer, so I (and everyone I know) took a pay cut last year. Even worse, I was expected to produce the same amount of work, even though I legally I wasn't allowed to work as much, nor was anybody else in our group.

I am not complaining. I am very fortunate to have a job, and I like it, but I sleep well knowing that the taxpayers get their money's worth out of me.

[dorminWS]

@trailrunner:
In that case, you're obviously one of the 90% we should keep.

[widefat]

Right, and all gun owners are violent haters responsible for the pain and suffering of little children. Dont be offended dorm, because we have more in common, think similar thoughts, and both agree this country is headed down the wrong path. I just get tired of govt employee bashing.

Looks to me like we need to worry about getting a law through Congress that Government pay may not exceed pay levels for Private employment.
I have a Masters degree in an engineering discipline and almost 30 years of experience in my field. If I left the fed, I would see an immediate substantial pay increase. So at least one fed you 'know'' on the GS scale gets paid less than market value, but chooses to stay for non-monetary reasons.

Since they have absolutely iron-bound job security, they should probably get paid less; since they damned sure DO less.
I see people fired every day. I have not claimed OT in YEARS, but I dang sure work it. When I am done at the end of the day, I see a measurable product that has a positive impact on your life, even in far SW VA.

Of course, before we cut their pay, we need to lay off about 10% of them across the board.
Absolutely agree. Tell your congress/senate rep; they have the power, but always back off when the cuts come near their own pork.

I'll guarantee you there isn't a government agency anywhere that couldn't reduce its workforce by 10% and never miss them.
Closer to 15%

[BlackKnight]

The part of the government I work for is exactly opposite. Contractors usually make more than government employees doing the exact same job. One former government employee went from $35,000 a year to $75,000 as a contractor. Two other government employees I know went from $32,000 to $60,000+ as contractors.

[dorminWS]

OK, trailrunner, widefat and BlackKnight all point out that they are productive government employees that can be fired and are underpaid compared to people doing the same job in private industry, and I have absolutely no doubt that is true. But the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) has nonetheless announced that government workers are on average getting paid 45% more than their counterparts in private industry.

What does that mean, and how do you reconcile the two propositions?

(1) First, it would seem to me that there is zero chance that the BLS produced a fraudulent study that shows government workers (among whom they themselves number) are overpaid. I think we can take that as fact.

(2) I am certainly willing to take our three compadres (trailrunner, widefat and BlackKnight) at their word and also regard their representations as fact.

(3) That brings us to the apparent contradiction between what the BLS says (and my remarks concerning it) and what the aforementioned three compadres have told us.

The resolution of the apparent contradiction lies in the realization that there is no contradiction.

There can be no doubt that ON AVERAGE these people are overpaid to the tune of 145% of the market value of their services; and recent “fake scandals” in Obamunist’s bureaucracy have shown us that gross incompetence, reckless waste and even criminal activity does not result in the perpetrators being fired. The fact that there are honest hardworking men and women amongst them who are so woefully UNDERPAID merely shows that our government(s) are SO bad at rewarding competence and productivity and paying people based upon the true worth of their services that they can underpay good people and STILL AVERAGE AN 45% OVERPAYMENT OF THEIR EMPLOYEES! So it is WORSE than the BLS study says it is.

None of this surprises me. What about you?

And, by the way, I certainly meant no offense to the honest men and women who work for government.

[dusterdude]

Blacknight,are the government contractors independent contractors?and therefore responsible for their healthcare costs and paying their taxes out of their gross pay?if so,i can see where the extra pay comes in


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[ShotgunBlast]

What does that mean, and how do you reconcile the two propositions?

(1) First, it would seem to me that there is zero chance that the BLS produced a fraudulent study that shows government workers (among whom they themselves number) are overpaid. I think we can take that as fact.

(2) I am certainly willing to take our three compadres (trailrunner, widefat and BlackKnight) at their word and also regard their representations as fact.

(3) That brings us to the apparent contradiction between what the BLS says (and my remarks concerning it) and what the aforementioned three compadres have told us.

There is no contradiction because the BLS conducted a survey covering a broad swath of government agencies and talk about average pay between private and public workers while our compadres just have their individual anecdotal experiences. No one is saying that all government employees cost more than their comparable private sector employees.

[trailrunner]

A couple of things.

First, my post was a reaction to the implication that government workers are lazy, overpaid, unmotivated slobs. I'm sure some are. But I've also been in the private world, and so have members of my families, and my friends, and there is the same thing going on out there too. Bell curves in both worlds.

Second, like Mr. (or Ms.) Widefat, I have an advanced degree in engineering physics. But I am basically on the same government pay scale as accountants, HR, ethics counselors, contract managers, and so on. So for those of us with technical degrees, government jobs probably do underpay. For government accountants, HR, ethics counselors, and contract managers, they are probably overpaid compared to what they make in the private sector (caveat: I am not familiar with these fields, so I admit that I could be wrong). I've known a few government lawyers, and they could make a huge pile more outside government. Probably the same thing for doctors. So a lot of this depends on the labor category, and aggregated across all types of government jobs, it may work out that government workers are overpaid.

Finally, although this study came from BLS, I would still take it with a grain of salt. I've already pointed out what might happen if the study is based on all labor categories across all government agencies. There may also be a political bias in the study which we may not be aware of. No, I can't imagine the motivation behind publishing a story that says that government workers are overpaid, but there could be some reason there. Just don't blindly believe studies and then go off and slander all government workers.

I take it personally when someone says that all of us government employees are lazy and overpaid, and I wanted to correct some other misconceptions, such as government workers not being able to be fired, or that we get automatic pay raises independent of performance. Us gun owners don't like it when uniformed anti-gunners make baseless claims about guns or gun owners.

OK, let's be friends now.

[Winever]

As an Engineer who does happen to work for DoD, I would argue that the referenced study is either flawed or statistically mis-reported. Certainly there are a number of job types that are overpaid as compared to private industry. These overpaid jobs likely make up a fairly large portion of all government jobs. However, there are also a number of job codes that are underpaid as compared to private industry. Some examples of this are engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. Mainly jobs that require significant college education.

As an engineer I am underpaid and have worse benefits as compared to private industry; however I get more satisfaction out of my job supporting the war fighter.

The biggest issue with the report is it took a huge number of jobs and averaged them. That is POOR statistical reporting.

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[grumpyMSG]

We all make choices in life, sometimes they are for personal reasons, sometimes they are for monetary reasons. The reality is there is no perfect comparison between all governmental and non-governmental jobs. A civilian dentist might on paper make a lot more than a US Army or Navy dentist. The reality is, that civilian dentist would have to be a part of a practice or own his/her own practice, where he/she would have to pay malpractice insurance, lease building space, pay an accountant, an office manager and an assistant or two. A military doctor would have to pay for none of that, A civilian dentist gets to pick where he/she hangs his/ her shingle. A military doctor gets no choice. Nothing is exactly the same for both so comparing the two jobs are tough to say the least. I spent 28 years in the Army and National Guard, did it pay well? Some times it was better than the civilian world, other times it was worse. I saw civilian contractors in Iraq doing a job not too different from my civilian job getting paid far more than I was as Master Sergeant. If the Army ran that facility it probably would have been a Specialist or Sergeant doing the same jobs making half of what the contractor was getting paid. In the end a Soldier would have been entitled to VA benefits after his/ her contract was complete, If he/ she completed 20 years service, he/ she would have been entitled to retirement pay/ benefits. The contractor on the other hand would not be entitled to those benefits. In the long run which will cost the taxpayer more? It would take accountants and actuaries to figure that out.

Just to add a little to the discussion though, here is an interesting story about the public/ private partnership model for Sandy Springs GA: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/busin ... d=all&_r=0

Initially, and for the first five and a half years of its life, Sandy Springs used just one company, CH2M Hill, based in Englewood, Colo., to handle every service it delivered. Mr. McDonough says CH2M saved the town millions compared with the cost of hiring a conventional public work force, but last year Sandy Springs sliced the work into pieces and solicited competitive bids.

When the competition was over, the town had spread duties to a handful of corporations and total annual outlays dropped by $7 million. (Representatives of CH2M, which still has a call-center contract, said at the time that they were “deeply disappointed” by the results, but wished the city well, according to a local news report.)

To dissuade companies from raising prices or reducing the quality of service, the town awarded contracts to a couple of losing bidders for every winner it hired. The contracts do not come with any pay or any work — unless the winning bidder that prevailed fails to deliver. It’s a bit like the Miss America pageant anointing the runner-up as the one who will fulfill the winner’s duties if, for some reason, Miss America cannot.