1911s

[Chasbo00]

Despite my recently buying a 1911, I agree with this article. Anyone think it's way off base?

MY PERSONAL PATH AWAY FROM THE 1911

It is easy to get caught up in the mystique and history of the 1911, but the design is over 100 years old, and we have learned a few things about designing and manufacturing since then. If you enjoy the craftsmanship of a finely built 1911 or you enjoy tinkering on your own, by all means continue to enjoy them. However, if training, shooting, and performance is your primary goal and you lack the resources, time, patience, or knowledge to keep after a 1911, then be realistic and choose something more modern.

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=6631

[dorminWS]

Any of those "more modern" pistols got a decent trigger and a positive safety on them?

[Chasbo00]

Any of those "more modern" pistols got a decent trigger and a positive safety on them?

My three favorite things about a 1911 are the trigger, the trigger and the trigger. My CZ pistols have an easier to use thumb safety than my 1911s. With a 1911, you need to rest your firing hand thumb on the thumb safety to shoot it well fast and reliabably, and this forces a really high grip that is awkward for some folks.

[dorminWS]

Any of those "more modern" pistols got a decent trigger and a positive safety on them?

My three favorite things about a 1911 are the trigger, the trigger and the trigger. My CZ pistols have an easier to use thumb safety than my 1911s. With a 1911, you need to rest your firing hand thumb on the thumb safety to shoot it well fast and reliabably, and this forces a really high grip that is awkward for some folks.

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Agreed. But do you know which "modern pistols" have a trigger a 1911 guy could love?

[Chasbo00]

Agreed. But do you know which "modern pistols" have a trigger a 1911 guy could love?

I've heard good things about the Sig 210 and reworked Browning Hi Powers, but I have no personal experience with either of these. I have shot a couple SA only CZs that were competition guns having had trigger jobs and they were pretty sweet. But, I would still rate the 1911 platform as the true king for SA triggers. In the action competition world, the 1911 (2011 type platform actually with their double stack mag capacity) remains the dominant gun in the open divisions. Here one can shoot any type pistol they desire and the 1911 trigger is a key aspect for keeping this platform dominant.

[Palladin]

I love my XD tupperware...

[WRW]

I'm thinking that the OP was in regards to service pistols?

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[Chasbo00]

Today, my carry guns are plastic-framed - either a Glock or M&P. But I carried a 1911 during my 20 plus years in the Army. I've been fortunate to own and shoot a lot of different handguns over the past few decades. All considered, I've found the Glock 19 to be very hard to beat as a carry gun.

The article sums up pretty well why I don't think the 1911 makes a good carry or service gun.

[M1A4ME]

I've carried/shot 1911s since 1978. 1911's (mine was made in 1917), 1911A1s (courtesy of the US Army), Pre series 70 Colts (my Combat Commander), Series 70 Government Model (my satin nickel Colt) and a Series 80 Government Model (my stainless steel Colt).

I've never had to put my thumb on top of the safety. I use it to hold the grip, so it doesn't flop around and actuate the safety till I want it to.

My 1911 jammed once - a commercial reload that was swelled (taught me to look my rounds over before I put them in the magazine.

The GI 1911A1s we had rattled like a can of nuts/bolts but went bang every time and I was knocking down pop ups at 50 meters the first time I'd ever fired a 1911 type pistol.

My Combat Commander has never jammed, it'll feed empty cases one after the other out of the magazine.

My Series 70 taught me that there are Colt's that don't like short rounds. Gives me a nose up stovepipe instead of chambering. So I seat even the light bullets out to the same overall length of 230 grain fmj ammo.

My Series 80 has never jammed.

None have ever broken parts. Did have a magazine puke one time. The bottom welds gave up and the bottom, spring, follower and remaining bullets dropped to the ground at my feet.

I have magazines from all over. GI surplus, CMC, $3 gun shop specials (from back in the 70's and 80's) and magazines I traded some S&W magazines for a few years back. They all work. In every 1911 I own.

When I got into the plastic guns a few years back (Glock first, then XDM, now M&P) I would carry a 1911 to the range with me. When my son or nephew would ask what was wrong with me (when looking at the groups on paper) I'd pick up the 1911 for the next group and shut them up.

Does it really matter how old the design is? It works. The 1911 works just as good today as it did back then. The new models didn't make it more reliable or more accurate, they just changed things to respond to people who complained (someone always complains about something/everything). In 2017 me and my boys are going to the range and we're going to shoot my 100 year old Colt and it will shoot as well as any of my new plastic pistols, if not better.

People who complain things are old and no longer good are usually looking for the new things to compensate for some issue they have.

My Glock and my M&Ps have had more failures to fire, chamber, etc. in the last 3 years than my Colts in over 30 years. And the Colts have many thousands of rounds more ammo through them. The XDMs have been flawless, in functioning anyway.

I now have more plastic guns than Colt 1911 guns. They carry more ammo. When I go outside to work in the yard or the garage I take the plastic gun. When I go to bed at night, a Colt is by the bed. From over 30 years of carry/use I know it will work. You've got to use it long enough to "know it" and you've got to have faith in it through that use.

Do you know the what the fastest single jet engine airplane in the world is?

A hint: it set the record in 1963. That's right. The single jet engine speed record is over 50 years old. In those 50 years no new fighter/interceptor built by any country in the world is faster than an airplane designed and built in the 1950's.

An airplane replaced by the F15. But when they were removed from front line duty and relegated to ANG service the pilots that got them delighted in "jumping" the new F15's in exercise and winning. That's right. The ANG pilots were using 20 year old airplanes to win against the newest jet fighter in the US Air Force at that time, the F15. Now the F15 is a super airplane, even today and has been developed into the best airplane out there since its introduction.

Anyway, the F106, long gone from service as anything but drones, still holds the world single engine speed record. Faster than F16's.

Old stuff can be pretty cool. Sometimes. Its a good thing not everyone likes Colt 1911's or I wouldn't have gotten mine as cheap as I did.

[Chasbo00]

Well, at least the Marine SOF guys are with you.

[WRW]

I just watched a video of Jerry Miculek using a revolver at a race gun event. That's an older design than the 1911.

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[MarcSpaz]

Although I never served as a LEO or in the military, I can say that the 1911 to me as a defense weapon seems very outdated exclusively due to mag sizes. A gun that carries 7 or 8 rounds with one in the pipe doesn't seem like enough compared to a modern double stack that holds 12 or 13 with one in the pipe. Having to carry double the amount of mags to have the same ammo count on hand and the need to swap mags more often seems it leaves more room for error.

Outside of that, I loved my 1911A's. Very slim so the can conceal easier. Nice trigger action and super accurate are a plus. The time to drop is really good to say the least.

But let's be honest. It sucks as a modern defense weapon. If you buy one today, its because it is a 1911. And really, what other excuse do you need?

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[WRW]

Second and third magazines are not limited to 8 rounds, if that's the biggest objection.

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[grumpyMSG]

Agreed. But do you know which "modern pistols" have a trigger a 1911 guy could love?

dorminWS I would suggest you give the P220 to P229 Sigs a good hard look. They do not have a traditional safety like a 1911. The standard pistol is decocker equipped, fires double action for the first shot and single action for follow ons. You can manually cock the pistol for the first shot if you want. They also have double action only versions available. On the double action/ single action pistols the first pull is smooth but fairly heavy, by my guess in the 9 to 10 pound range and the single action shots are closer to five pounds. I personally think it is a workable compromise, it won't accidentally go off, but unlike the Beretta M9/ 92FS you can't accidentally leave the safety on when you try to fire it in a high stress moment. I would liken the double action trigger pull to a good double action revolver.

I've heard good things about the Sig 210 and reworked Browning Hi Powers, but I have no personal experience with either of these. I have shot a couple SA only CZs that were competition guns having had trigger jobs and they were pretty sweet. But, I would still rate the 1911 platform as the true king for SA triggers. In the action competition world, the 1911 (2011 type platform actually with their double stack mag capacity) remains the dominant gun in the open divisions. Here one can shoot any type pistol they desire and the 1911 trigger is a key aspect for keeping this platform dominant.

Chasbo00 The Browning Hi-Power is essentially the 1911's younger brother, and the Sig 210s are single stack 9MMs, so not only are you limited to 8 shots, but the bullets weigh half as much as a .45's. CZ are good pistols and the CZ75 has had a lot of copies made by other manufacturers, that in itself probably indicates it is a solid design.

I have the belief that firearms are tools and are mechanical objects, use your tools properly and take care of them and they won't let you down. I also believe whether you have 8 shots or 15, it doesn't matter if you don't hit the target. The critical points with a defensive weapon are:
1. Does the operator know how to use the weapon? The operator can't forget to take safety off, be unable to reload or be unable to unjam the weapon.
2. Does the weapon function reliably when fired by the operator? It doesn't matter if it's hitting the safety with your thumb, limp wristing or causing a jam by getting positioning your non-firing hand to block the slide as it recoils.
3. Can the operator hit the target? 7, 8 or 15 rounds don't matter if you can't hit the target.

Any weapon can have malfunctions, not just 1911s just watch this youtube clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSGS9eg9XJM

[Chasbo00]

Chasbo00 The Browning Hi-Power is essentially the 1911's younger brother, and the Sig 210s are single stack 9MMs, so not only are you limited to 8 shots, but the bullets weigh half as much as a .45's. CZ are good pistols and the CZ75 has had a lot of copies made by other manufacturers, that in itself probably indicates it is a solid design.

DormanWS asked "But do you know which "modern pistols" have a trigger a 1911 guy could love?" To me that means you are talking about a single action only gun and the fact is there are damn few of them. Hence, the Sig 210 and Browning Hi Power suggestions. The Sig 210 has a very different trigger than a special order, single-action-only version of the other standard Sig models available today, such as the Sig 220 you mentioned. I think the latter's triggers suck. The CZ 75 family can be factory outfitted with a single action only trigger, but the only ones I've personally tried were reworked by the custom shop to include a complete action job, so I don't know how the standard single actions feel compared to the 1911 which has a universally acknowledged superb single action trigger.

You can't compare a traditional double action (DA/SA) trigger to a 1911 - that's apples and oranges. And no DA/SA trigger, even if operated only in SA mode, can compare to a good single action only trigger, at least none I'm aware of.

So, do you know of any other modern single action only pistols with a superb single action trigger?

[Chasbo00]

Here are a couple of videos that are 1911 specific addressing the grip and trigger:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXbqwx5UGx8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtJlZqkFP-4

[AdamG]

This type of argument has been going on in every industry for years. whether you are talking about cars over head cam vs over head valve or air planes or guns doesnt mater. different strokes for different folks.

I kinda have my own feelings about the 8 round capacity. I feel for a carry weapon 8 rounds is more then enough and their are people that carry revolvers the only have 5 rounds.

[Jakeiscrazy]

I agree best part about a 1911 is a nice straight back crisp trigger. That said I can an m&p because triggers aren't everything.

Has anyone owned or shot some of the double stack 1911s? I always wondered if they retained the great ergos and trigger.

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[dorminWS]

I agree best part about a 1911 is a nice straight back crisp trigger. That said I can an m&p because triggers aren't everything.

Has anyone owned or shot some of the double stack 1911s? I always wondered if they retained the great ergos and trigger.

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I have fired a Para-ordinance P14-45 . It has 1911-like trigger. But the bigger grip/frame cross section does detract from the 1911 experience, IMO.

[bryanrheem]

All this talk of high capacity magazines/ammo capacity.

I firmly believe that if you are ever in a situation where you need more than 24 rounds (let's say 3 mags of 8rds each), you are in SERIOUS trouble, or the Zombie apocalypse (i.e. serious trouble).

I think the best carry gun is the one that you can shoot quick and accurate, regardless of design.