[video] Cop kills man in Idaho - apparent "Suicide by Cop"

[allingeneral]

What do you think of this? Good shoot? The guy apparently was involved in a hit and run accident, and he went home after the crash. Officers were investigating the crash and had come to his home to speak with him. The woman at the house indicates that the guy is inside and trying to cut himself with a knife. Officer entered the house. The man had a knife and was advancing on the officer who had his gun drawn. Commands to drop the knife and stop the advance were ignored. The man got his ticket punched by the cop.

This video isn't gory, but it is graphic and will probably make you think for a minute after watching it.

[Viper21]

Wow. Obviously, I know nothing about what led to the police wanting to question him. However, he appeared to be pretty mellow, & didn't appear to be actually threatening the officer. That's just my take on what I saw. I have real issues with LE killing citizens in their own homes. Maybe he was injured & in shock..?! I don't know.

It's hard to really have a strong opinion on it one way or the other without more information. Having said that, based on the video, & the video alone..... it doesn't look right to me. 5 shots..?! wow. Im not one who favors LE entering peoples homes, guns drawn, without threats made or assumed. the woman stated in the vid she worried about him hurting himself but, didn't say he was aggressive or a danger to anyone else. I certainly understand to err on the side of caution but, taking someones life is a situation, I'd rather have a more clear threat.

Without more info..... that's a pretty disturbing situation imo.

[FiremanBob]

He was very close. If he had run at the cop, he could have cut him before being shot. Very troubling situation.

I don't like the authoritarian way the cop handled it. Don't they have highly paid hostage negotiators on staff? Could the cop have recruited the woman to help talk the guy down rather than barking at her to sit down? I find the cop's attitude quite disturbing.

[Viper21]

He was very close. If he had run at the cop, he could have cut him before being shot. Very troubling situation.

I don't like the authoritarian way the cop handled it. Don't they have highly paid hostage negotiators on staff? Could the cop have recruited the woman to help talk the guy down rather than barking at her to sit down? I find the cop's attitude quite disturbing.

That's kind of where Im at with it Bob. Im not for LE getting injured or taking chances with their own lives when avoidable. However, it just "feels" a little much to me. Was the guy able to understand the officers commands..? We'll never know. Hard to determine from the video but, was the guy suffering from a self inflicted wound..? Again, can't tell.

Where the guy didn't aggressively attack or lunge at the officer (admittedly I cant tell from the video his posture with the knife), 5 shots seems overkill to me. A clearer video & more info would make judgement of the situation easier for sure. Although, based on just this vid... again, seems like a little much to me. Im not convinced taking this guys life was neccasary.

[FiremanBob]

I think the number of shots had more to do with adrenalin than with tactics.

[dusterdude]

Dont cops carry tasers?


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[trailrunner]

I'm not one to defend cops, but IMHO he did everything right in this instance. The call was for a suicidal person with a knife. If he had not entered the house, and the man killed himself, the cop would have been criticized for letting him kill himself. The cop also did not know if the guy with the knife was endangering the life of anyone else. He could have had been in the process of hurting someone.

Once he saw the man with the knife, he told him to drop the knives - several times. Instead, the man advanced on him, still holding the knives. The cop took a few steps back, buying some time and giving the guy another chance. But then he was at the door and could not back up any further. So the guy with the knife continued to walk towards him. He was easily within the 7 yards where you are generally considered to be a real threat. The cop had few choices at that point.

The dead guy did two things that contributed to his death: he didn't drop the knives, and he advanced on the cop. At that point, he gets what he deserves. If he does that to a regular citizen, he also deserves to be shot.

The cop's attitude doesn't matter (and as I said, if anything, I think he showed patience, and he did retreat). This is the same line of reasoning that people used against GZ.

[FiremanBob]

This is the same line of reasoning that people used against GZ.

You can't be serious, trying to compare this with Zimmerman/Martin? Zimmerman was violently attacked, sucker-punched and on his back before even reaching for his weapon. In this incident, the cop had lots of resources to call on and plenty of time. His entire approach to the guy, even his choice of words, was confrontational - "I order you to obey me." My problem is not with the last three seconds of the incident, but with the first 1:50.

[trailrunner]

You can't be serious, trying to compare this with Zimmerman/Martin?

Geez. Go back and read what I wrote. You have a habit of distorting what people say to fit an argument you want to make. Stop being so argumentative.

I'll try it again: Your argument of pointing out the cop's attitude prior to the incident is similar to what others did to cast blame on GZ. You even said it again:

In this incident, the cop had lots of resources to call on and plenty of time. His entire approach to the guy, even his choice of words, was confrontational - "I order you to obey me." My problem is not with the last three seconds of the incident, but with the first 1:50.

You are looking at the cop's attitude prior to the shooting, just as people looked to blame GZ by looking at his behavior leading up to the confrontation with TM. Those are largely irrelevant to the facts.

I'll say it again: This is the same line of reasoning that people used against GZ.

Get in now?

[ShotgunBlast]

Dont cops carry tasers?


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I could see that if the person was unarmed, but I'm not going to rely on the one shot you get with a taser and hope both probes make contact when the person has a lethal weapon and is within striking distance.

A sad event, but I'd call it a clean shoot.

[Viper21]

I'm not one to defend cops, but IMHO he did everything right in this instance. The call was for a suicidal person with a knife. If he had not entered the house, and the man killed himself, the cop would have been criticized for letting him kill himself. The cop also did not know if the guy with the knife was endangering the life of anyone else. He could have had been in the process of hurting someone.

Once he saw the man with the knife, he told him to drop the knives - several times. Instead, the man advanced on him, still holding the knives. The cop took a few steps back, buying some time and giving the guy another chance. But then he was at the door and could not back up any further. So the guy with the knife continued to walk towards him. He was easily within the 7 yards where you are generally considered to be a real threat. The cop had few choices at that point.

The dead guy did two things that contributed to his death: he didn't drop the knives, and he advanced on the cop. At that point, he gets what he deserves. If he does that to a regular citizen, he also deserves to be shot.

The cop's attitude doesn't matter (and as I said, if anything, I think he showed patience, and he did retreat). This is the same line of reasoning that people used against GZ.

It was my impression that the call was made as a result of him hitting a telephone pole & leaving the scene of the accident. Which makes sense when watching the video, & the officer brings up insurance info & such. I would guess he was intoxicated, or under the influence. Doesn't seem like a stretch for an assumption.

I wish the video wasn't so blurred by the officers arms/hands/etc. I'd like to have seen the guys posture as it relates to the knife he was holding. Could taking the mans life been avoided..? Hard to say. An unobstructed video would probably have made that more clear.

I know the officer was cleared in the shooting. Can't say I disagree. However, I bet that one haunts the officer for years to come.

[Swampman]

Tough situation. Five shots at close range seems a little much, but then, you couldn't pay me to do what those guys do. The guy didn't seem aggressive, but it has already been pointed out that the cops arms were blocking most of the view. He may have raised the knife to a threatening position.

The cop's demeanor going in was calm, but he had been warned the guy had a knife. In close quarters like that and not knowing the layout, the guy could have been on him before the cop drew his weapon. I don't know how cops are trained and what his habits are so I'll not criticize him.

[MarcSpaz]

The article I read said that the LEO was there to investigate the accident, as the guy left the scene of the accident.

He was stern and had to isolate the female from the home and keep her defused, as she may also be a threat or become one. He also has to speak authoritatively to the guy in the house to establish a commanding presents, allowing the officer to start the process of controlling the situation.

The LEO entered the house with his weapon drawn because he was advised the man had a knife. The female said "he might be trying to cut himself". You could clearly hear the officer trying to talk the guy out of hurting himself, so I doubt the LEO's intent entering the home was to kill the guy

keep in mind, the LEO was alone and waiting for backup, but wanted to make sure the guy wasn't hurting himself. He isn't going to go into the home to find an armed person while on his own. That is extremely dangerous with regard to possible ambush. Especially with potential aggressors on two sides of him.

The LEO gave the guy plenty of chances to stop his advance and put the knives down. The officer retreated as far as he could without turning his back to this aggressor. The guy put the LEO in a position where he had to defend himself.

Some folks said either the guy was potentially in shock or intoxicated, That does not improve the situation making it less dangerous or make the shooting any less justified. In fact, the exact opposite. Someone who is not thinking clearly or rationally and has clear intent on causing harm is a very serious threat and its harder to control the situation.

IMHO... Clean shoot. Officer did everything right given what I saw. The situation is very sad, as there was loss of life. It would have been more of a tragedy if the officer was killed while trying to help someone who clearly didn't want any.

[FiremanBob]

According to the bodycam, the officer was not the only LEO on scene at the time. I maintain that he could have handled it using de-escalation methods rather than the urgent, authoritarian manner he used.

@trailrunner: your comment about my "habit" is FOS. I am scrupulous about debating honestly on the topic, here and elsewhere. Perhaps you could explain what you mean by "You are looking at the cop's attitude prior to the shooting, just as people looked to blame GZ by looking at his behavior leading up to the confrontation with TM. Those are largely irrelevant to the facts." Perhaps you are confused by the word "attitude" - would it be clearer if I said " behavior"? How is the officer's handling of the situation " irrelevant to the facts"? It is part of the facts. But then you use the word "behavior" to describe Zimmerman.

I believe your logic is muddled. First, I have always supported Zimmerman's case and never blamed him for any aspect of his handling of the TM incident. Second, I am not saying that this incident was not a "clean shoot" at the time the shots were fired. I do believe it may have been avoidable, however, but the chances for alternative resolution were constrained by the LEO's initial handling of it.

[MarcSpaz]

According to the bodycam, the officer was not the only LEO on scene at the time.

I watched the video a couple of times. I saw him on the radio talking to other LEO's, but I don't see another officer until after the shooting. I guess I am missing where the other LEO's were. NBD

[Remek]

I do not have a problem with five shots. You don't shoot to wound, you shoot to kill. Everyone knows that.

I don't have a problem with any part of what he did upon entering the house. I would do the same.

What I have a problem with is that he entered the house. The S.O. Was not killed him, and didn't have any fear that he'd do anything but hurt himself. Entering the house only escalated the situation. There was nothing else it could have done. The LEO should have waited for more qualified help. Or, he could have gotten another officer, and used tasers, or clubs. I mean, what was the guy going to do? Damage his own property? Or worse yet, alieviate the burden of shooting himself by suicide? God, that part pisses me off.

Why do LEOs so often kill people who *might* kill themselves? I am reminded of the fellow in Fairfax who broke up with his SO, after many years, was depressed, and the SO stated he was depressed and had a fun. So, what do the Fairfax police do? They bring in an APC, position snipers and bully the depressed man, then shoot him first chance they get.

LEO: "Don't kill yourself, we will do it for you!"

The fact is, you must NEVER consent to an LEO entering your house, and you must NEVER talk to them about anything. Situations like these result. I know on this incident she could not stop him, the LEO was coming anyway, but you should always remember: Do not talk to the LEOs, and if you do, make it lighthearted stuff only.

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[sdcharger]

It's easy to Monday morning quarterback a situation like this. I bet the officer has been thinking about all the better ways of handling this situation since the shooting. I think it was handled very poorly. The bottom line is the officer had the right to be there, had the right to make contact with the suspect, and had the right to shoot him to stop the threat he posed to the officer. It sucks, and better decision making may have had a much better outcome for everyone. Then again, if someone gets it 100% into their mind they want to die, there is nothing you can do to stop them.