.45 ?

[Vince]

Is a .45 really needed for carry with 6 or 7 rounds (Concealed carry) or would say 40,38 or 9 better? I have 2 carry pistols, 1st is a G19 and 2nd is a M&P40c. I actually prefer the G19 to carry as I feel it sits and feels well in my Kramer IWB. I guess what I am getting at is I want a 1911 and was pretty much set on a Sig in .45 and after talking to a few people my mind has changed to a 38super in a 1911 platform, Colt Commander. 1, it will carry a few more rounds. 2, it is screaming fast and hits almost as hard from what I have read. So school me on why I should buy a .45 vs 38super. OR is it just a bad question?

[DaRoller]

Not necessarily a bad question, you're just going to get both answers (and someone else will tell you to get a .40. or a 9mm. or something else).
Answer usually is use the one you're going to use. If you can/will carry one over the other, and you can hit your target with it, carry that one. If you buy one that you never carry or can't hit your target with, it won't do you much good.

[WRW]

I understand that Sig has a 1911 in 357 Sig now, but I'd get the .38 Super if ammo availability weren't a concern.

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[Vince]

I'm really leaning to the 38super. I do want a .45 but after seeing there capacity for a CC gun I can't justify the purchase. Also I have no issues getting ammo for that caliber.

[WRW]

If all that was available was ball ammo, the .45 would make more sense..

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[M1A4ME]

The .38 Super came about from the days when shoot outs on the highway and bank robberies were a more regular thing. Over time they found out the .45 acp didn't do a real good job of penetrating the car bodies of those days (1920 and 1930s) and the .38 super was developed as an improved car body/metal penetrator that fit/fired from a familiar/popular gun, the 1911. I think they even made some Thompson sub machine guns in .38 super??

Anyway, not knowing what the status/availability of good hollow point/expanding rounds are for .38 supers you might be better off with a different caliber. These days the standard .38 super store bought ammo might be bad to over penetrate vs. all the newly designed hollow points for 9MM, .357 SIG and .40 S&W.

The 1911 was designed around the .45 acp. You won't get the big magazines/capacity in one that you'll get from the newer plastic pistols that were designed around a high capacity magazine.

I can't fault you in your desire to have/shoot a 1911 style pistol. I shoot mine better than any other semi auto pistol I've ever shot. But, these days, my drag, lay down in the grass/dirt, carry around on the mower, walk the dogs in the rain, work in the garage gun is a S&W M&P full sized gun. I buy the ones with ambidextrous safeties like my 1911's and the guns fit my hand better than the Glocks or XDMs.

If you want .38 super type "speed" with a high capacity polymer gun the .357 SIG may be for you. My new .40 S&W M&P pistol is loaded with Winchester silver tip HPs right now but when my new .357 SIG barrel somes in from Midway the .40 barrel will get oiled up and go in a box in the garage. I know factory .357 SIG ammo is expensive and hard to find sometimes but I reload it for the Glock so I'm ready for the M&P.

Oh, did you know that if you get a .40 S&W Glock or M&P all you have to do to shoot .357 SIG in it is buy a .357 barrel for it. The magazines work for either cartridge. And, they say that if you want to shoot 9MM ammo all you need is a 9MM barrel and 9MM magazines. Lots of folks are doing this. That makes it pretty easy to buy whatever ammo you can find or is cheap and just change the barrel (.357 SIG or .40 S&W) or the barrel and magazines (for 9MM).

You can go to 9MM from the .40 S&W or .357 SIG but the 9MM pistols can't be used to go up to .357 SIG or .40 S&W.

One more thing. With the 1911 you can buy a .22 conversion kit for cheap practice. With the S&W you can buy a .22 rimfire model that is the same size/feel as the full sized guns. With the Glock you can buy a .22 conversion kit. With the XD or XDM from Springfield Armory you can't (not yet anyway) get a .22 version or conversion kit. Don't overlook the cheap practice potential of the .22 rimfire cartridge.

[gunderwood]

Any of the four common defense calibers will do; 9mm, .357SIG, .40SW, and .45ACP. All but the .357SIG are around 400ft-lbs and get close to 500ft-lbs with the hotter loadings. 500ft-lbs is average for .357SIG. These are the common calibers because in order to give it you have to take it. I.e. more powerful cartridges do exist, but aren't common because somewhere around the 300-500ft-lbs of muzzle energy translates into the best balance between power and control for the average person. Please don't take this as ME is what matters, because it's merely one metric of cartridge performance, but if you optimize a bullet to dump all of its energy as quickly as possible while penetrating at least 12" and no more than 18" (FBI standard which is what all modern HPs are designed for), all the cartridges perform about the same. Engineers have to tweak the bullet designs, but there is no magic bullet and the laws of physics still apply.

What's different is the failure modes. Obviously if a HP doesn't expand, .45 retains the edge because it's going to create a bigger hole; bigger hole equals higher probability of hitting something that matters. One downside is that .45s typically carry much less ammo than the other options or have very big grips.

That being said you can't miss fast enough to win a gun fight. Practice matters and 9mm is the cheapest practice ammo, so I typically recommend that unless the ammo cost doesn't bother you. My personal favorite round is the .357SIG and I wish the major manufacturers still made real 10mm SD ammo because I'd be working on taming that beast.

[Vince]

Thanks all, so I am thinking for carry it may be best to just keep using my 9 or 40 which I have no issue with as I shoot both very well and just get a full size rig. It's not a need just a want, back to pondering a new want.

[Chasbo00]

I've not found a better carry gun than a Glock 19. A Smith and Wesson M&P is my second choice. I love 1911s, especially as range or competition guns; but I've not carried one since I bought my first Glock 19 over 20 years ago.

[bryanrheem]

I can carry my Sig 1911 or hk45c concealed and they only have 8 rds. I don't think capacity should be so much of a limiting factor for concealed carry. That is just my opinion.

I also try to carry at least one more mag on me and with the 1911, I can comfortably carry 2 extra mags.

If you get into a situation where you need more rounds, you are probably in deep trouble!

As some have said, carry what is most comfortable and familiar!

[joebobz]

I would go with 45 over 38 just because its easier to find

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[Vince]

I would go with 45 over 38 just because its easier to find

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I have no problem finding ammo for 38super, problem is finding the rig. I almost bought a .45 Colt Commander yesterday but had to walk away. I can't suppress my urge much longer so I may have a .45 soon if I cant find the 38super.

[arkypete]

A 45 does have the benefit of larger caliber, think of one bullet doing the work of a couple smaller caliber bullets. There is a down size to the 45, the size and weight of the weapon. One might be tempted to leave the weapon behind simply because it's a pain in the lower regions.
The smaller the caliber the more accurate the shooter needs to be.
One of the micro 9mms would be satisfactory if you dedicate yourself to practice. Get where you can draw and put two in the chest and one in the head, every time! Hard ball 9mm will do fine with this drill.


Jim

[gunderwood]

A 45 does have the benefit of larger caliber, think of one bullet doing the work of a couple smaller caliber bullets. There is a down size to the 45, the size and weight of the weapon. One might be tempted to leave the weapon behind simply because it's a pain in the lower regions.
The smaller the caliber the more accurate the shooter needs to be.
One of the micro 9mms would be satisfactory if you dedicate yourself to practice. Get where you can draw and put two in the chest and one in the head, every time! Hard ball 9mm will do fine with this drill.


Jim

Not necessarily true. Do more research and you'll find that the best bullets across the caliber perform similar.

[youtube]aPdl_egCaCA#![/youtube]

[arkypete]

Not necessarily true. Do more research and you'll find that the best bullets across the caliber perform similar.

Read more: http://vagunforum.net/handguns/topic-t1 ... z2MoAWB8NP

Not real sure what you said here. maybe you could be a bit clearer.

Jim

[gunderwood]

Fixed it. Sorry about that. The best 9mm and the best .45 perform very close to each other. That's not true with older bullet designs though. A single .45 bullet doesn't do the work of multiple smaller 9mm bullets.

A 45 does have the benefit of larger caliber, think of one bullet doing the work of a couple smaller caliber bullets.

[arkypete]

Fixed it. Sorry about that. The best 9mm and the best .45 perform very close to each other. That's not true with older bullet designs though. A single .45 bullet doesn't do the work of multiple smaller 9mm bullets.

I'm a dinosaur, I ascribe to the day light rule of stopping power. Grossly exaggerated, a 5 inch projectile lets more day light into the miscreant then a 22 caliber projectile. It's not the projectile, speed of the projectile, what the design of the projectile is that stops undesirable behavior, the quantity of day light introduced in to the miscreant.

I'm not much of an advocate of the 9mm for much of anything out side of paper. But having a 9mm with 6 or 7 rounds in the weapon and a couple of mags tucked in your pocket or vest sure beats a 45 left at home because it's irritant or inconvenient.
The 9mm will serve the purpose with ball or truncated cone FMJs if accurately placed. Two in the chest to stun the individual even if he's wearing a vest and one in the head to convince him that he needs to stop doing unpleasant things.

Jim

[GeneFrenkle]

I ran across this and thout it was interesting:

>> heavier, slower rounds in .40 (or 10mm) and .45 did extremely well in bare gelatin wound volume, but they ruled clothed gelatin wound volume. Their slow velocity did not prevent expansion. e.g.: the 230gr Rem Golden Saber .45 ACP at 871 fps expanded 58% in bare, and 62% in clothed gelatin!

http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php

Ugh, cannot cursor up. That was conclusion #5.

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[gunderwood]

I'm a dinosaur, I ascribe to the day light rule of stopping power. Grossly exaggerated, a 5 inch projectile lets more day light into the miscreant then a 22 caliber projectile.

Then you should love the fact that the 9mm let more day light in with a frontal area of 0.372" while the awful 230gr .45 was a pointless 0.344". Go for more daylight and shoot 9mm!

[gunderwood]

To be fair, here is one where .45 outperforms the 9mm.



Obviously, the GS 9mm isn't a recommended load based on terminal performance alone. Notice that while .45 outperforms 9mm with Golden Sabers, it's very close to the 9mm GD test I linked too earlier. I could post tests showing .45s that fail to expand at an alarming rate (seen them before, would have to invest the time to find it again though), but that wouldn't prove .45 is a bad round. Know your load and the best perform similarly.

The only loading that I've seen which dramatically outperforms in expansion compared to the average best is the Federal HSTs, either 9mm or .45, but the .45 is really impressive (nearly 1" under ideal conditions). However, while I would have no problem carrying HSTs, there are some questions about their ability to meet penetration requirements and barrier penetration. There is only so much energy available and all that impressive expansion comes with a price. Generally a good round though.