Cut Ten Commandments down to 6?

[OakRidgeStars]

More progressive nonsense from the Anti-Christian Lawyers Union (ACLU)

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From The Roanoke Times

Could the Ten Commandments be reduced to six, a federal judge asked Monday.

Would that neutralize the religious overtones of a commandments display that has the Giles County School Board in legal hot water?

That unorthodox suggestion was made by Judge Michael Urbanski during oral arguments over whether the display amounts to a governmental endorsement of religion, as alleged in a lawsuit filed by a student at Narrows High School.

After raising many pointed questions about whether the commandments pass legal muster, the judge referred the case to mediation - with a suggestion:

Remove the first four commandments, which are clearly religious in nature, and leave the remaining six, which make more secular commands, such as do not kill or steal.

Read more: http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/308501

[thekinetic]

Well the first four really only have to do with being a good christian, the last six are for being a good person.

Honostly I can see non christians following the last six without the first four.

Not to make trouble but christians have already violated the second and have done so for centuries. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image", and the cross that sits in the church bearing a likeness of Jesus Christ is exactly that.

Of course what these people are suggesting is a clear violation of the seperation of church and state.

[CCFan]

Please explane your understanding of "separation of church and state"? I'm curious what you see as a clear violation as stated above...

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[thekinetic]

Well while there is no exact phrase for the seperation of church and state in the constitution, the government must keep themselve neutral. It is why there is the first amendment which states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

In other words they and all other federal officials have no say in matters of religion.

[ShotgunBlast]

I'm with the ACLU on this one.

Do I have a problem with the 10 commandments or those who follow them? Absolutely not. Do I have a problem with people that try to wedge their religious preference into government entities eventhough our founding fathers say you can't do that? Absolutely.

Historical documents my azz. Anytime I read an article like this they fail to mention that they want to display any other "historical documents" like the Koran, Torah, etc.

[CCFan]

Ok, just making sure I understood. What I don't understand is that the very phrase you quoted, "...or prohibiting the free excercise thereof" would seem to me that by prohibiting the display of the ten commandments, the government is doing just that... What was written to protect the exercise of freedom to do as you wish (i.e. to *not* not worship at The Queens church and pay forced tithes to the church endorsed by the government) has been perverted into a "I'm offended someone is practicing their religion" loophole to discriminate against others who don't believe what they do (even when their belief is non-belief).

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[CCFan]

I know many won't agree with me on this one, and that's OK.... But I think The 10 Commandments should be posted, and the ACLU be damned. If you follow the actual history of our country religion is what made our country great. A huge percentage of our founding fathers were devout Christians (contrary to what many atheists would have us believe). The further we depart from those values, an, d head down the path of "everyone is a beautiful and unique snowflake so we must tolerate all ideas except those which offend us", the fast we fall... Just because its hanging on a wall doesn't mean its law, so I'm unsure how it can be construed as forcing religion on anyone.

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[ShotgunBlast]

Ok, just making sure I understood. What I don't understand is that the very phrase you quoted, "...or prohibiting the free excercise thereof" would seem to me that by prohibiting the display of the ten commandments, the government is doing just that... What was written to protect the exercise of freedom to do as you wish (i.e. to *not* not worship at The Queens church and pay forced tithes to the church endorsed by the government) has been perverted into a "I'm offended someone is practicing their religion" loophole to discriminate against others who don't believe what they do (even when their belief is non-belief).

I look at it as two parts:

1. Congress will not get into the religion business "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
2. Congress will not prevent you from practicing your religion "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

The friction is when an individual brings their personal religious beliefs into the government that is supposed to be government-free.

[CCFan]

In that case, we need to get the government out of the school system....

http://www.schoolchoices.org/roo/rush.htm

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[ShotgunBlast]

I know many won't agree with me on this one, and that's OK.... But I think The 10 Commandments should be posted, and the ACLU be damned. If you follow the actual history of our country religion is what made our country great. A huge percentage of our founding fathers were devout Christians (contrary to what many atheists would have us believe). The further we depart from those values, an, d head down the path of "everyone is a beautiful and unique snowflake so we must tolerate all ideas except those which offend us", the fast we fall... Just because its hanging on a wall doesn't mean its law, so I'm unsure how it can be construed as forcing religion on anyone.

Hold on, I don't think you've finished urinating on the 1st amendment. Go ahead and throw in a comment about how some people you don't agree with shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinions and you'll be all set.

No doubt that a lot of our legal structure came from other areas and religions (why reinvent the wheel when forming your own country?), but what really makes the law stick over 200+ years is that it's common sense stuff that the majority of the population can agree on. Don't kill people. Don't steal.

I think a lot of people would agree on two things:

1. The founding fathers were pretty awesome
2. The Constitution is pretty awesome

So let's go ahead and act like the founding fathers and respect the document that we all love so much. You're right that because it's hanging on a wall that doesn't make it law, but it does create a precedence. And over time that precedence gains momentum until one day it is law. Uh oh!

[Jakeiscrazy]

I'm with the ACLU on this one.

Do I have a problem with the 10 commandments or those who follow them? Absolutely not. Do I have a problem with people that try to wedge their religious preference into government entities eventhough our founding fathers say you can't do that? Absolutely.

Historical documents my azz. Anytime I read an article like this they fail to mention that they want to display any other "historical documents" like the Koran, Torah, etc.

Agreed my way of thinking on this is always. I'll teach my kids religion and let schools do the math, sci, english, and history. It's only fine and dandy when your kid is learning about the religion of your choice in schools but sooner or later someone will want ever other religion taught along side and at some point it gets to be to much.

[CCFan]

How exactly am I urinating on the 1st? It already states Congress shall enact no law respecting an establishment of religion, so how is this supposed precedence going to be law? It isn't, plain and simple.

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[widefat]

I consider myself a very devout, evangelical Christian. And I maintain that prayer/religion has no place in schools or government institutions - a couple of reasons -
if we truly believe in freedom of religion, then we must allow all religions to practice freely - whether we believe/agree or disagree in their doctrine/theology/faith. This is the only way to preserve our religious liberty. Therefore, if I allow Christian prayer in school, I must allow Islamic Prayer. I dont want Islamic prayer in school, so keep religion out period.
Second, when government enters the religious, government starts to make regulation and determination regarding religion. Do you really want Obama determining how and what you practice? Do you want his brand of theology to be the sanctioned religion of the government? Can you imagine the abomination of twisted doctrine that would emerge from congressional and senate committees?

Keep government away from our faith at every level.

[ShotgunBlast]

But I think The 10 Commandments should be posted, and the ACLU be damned.... Just because its hanging on a wall doesn't mean its law, so I'm unsure how it can be construed as forcing religion on anyone.

You can't say you're for the Constitution and also post that ^^^^^ at the same time.

It doesn't have to be a law to be a problem; our government should not be in the religion business. But if this school system gets their little "historical documents" area approved you know within the next few years every socially conservative county in the US will be trying to sneak in the same thing. "Well it got approved there so why can't we do it?" Then what can they sneak in next? Morning prayer in homeroom? Bible study hall? Where does it end? You set a precedence like this and over time it becomes a slippery slope. Nip it in the bud now and just keep it out of our public schools (and all other government buildings).

[Wallace]

I do not understand what part of the constitution this violates. The are expressing their religious beliefs. I believe that is protected by the 1st amendment. Pretty cut and dry. Also the federal government can not pass any legislation preventing them from expressing their religious beliefs. So if congress has not passed a law saying they cant do it, then the courts do not have a law to enforce.

Did you know that the civil rights legislation from back in the 60's created a system that paid lawyers to bring civil rights violations to court, AND those same lawyers get paid by the government even of they do not win the case. Hmmm why do you think that is?

[CCFan]

But I think The 10 Commandments should be posted, and the ACLU be damned.... Just because its hanging on a wall doesn't mean its law, so I'm unsure how it can be construed as forcing religion on anyone.

You can't say you're for the Constitution and also post that ^^^^^ at the same time.

It doesn't have to be a law to be a problem; our government should not be in the religion business. But if this school system gets their little "historical documents" area approved you know within the next few years every socially conservative county in the US will be trying to sneak in the same thing. "Well it got approved there so why can't we do it?" Then what can they sneak in next? Morning prayer in homeroom? Bible study hall? Where does it end? You set a precedence like this and over time it becomes a slippery slope. Nip it in the bud now and just keep it out of our public schools (and all other government buildings).

I can absolutely say I'm for the Constituion and post that.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The 10 Commandments hanging on the wall of a school A) isn't a law (that's been established) and B) doesn't prohibit anyone from walking right past it and worshipping Beelzebub if that's their cup of tea.

I would agree with you that our government shouldn't be in the religion business. In fact, about the only business I think the federal government should have their nose in is our national defense.

By your comment "every socially conservative county in the US will be trying to sneak in the same thing", I can tell you and I aren't going to get along too well. In my opinion, the liberal a**hats who have waged war on Christians ("Oh, you can't say Merry Christmas to me, I'm an atheist, I'm offended!! Wah!!") are one reason the ACLU exists. AFAIC, the ACLU can take a dirt nap. Someone's offended? Go put on your big boy britches, pick yourself up, and just don't say anything if someone wishes you a merry holiday you don't observe (but I bet you they're buying the heck outta some gifts, huh?)

The slippery slope argument has already begun, in my opinion, it's just headed in the opposite direction you posit.

in 1892, the Holy Trinity Church case, our own US Supreme Court stated in the ruling that "But, beyond all these matters, no purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people." (http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal ... /case.html)

That's a far cry from what our current Supreme Court would state, I dare say. The simple fact is, our country was founded as a Christian nation, and our education system arose out of the want to teach good and pious teachings, which Benjamin Rush and other framers of the Constitution believed could only come by teaching religious principals.

How many of our nations early colleges and universities had a religious affiliation? I find it funny that the same people who cry wolf at a school having a copy of the 10 Commandments hanging in a hallway have no problem donning their Notre Dame ball cap... or Duke, or Loyola Marymount, Georgetown, Cornell, Baylor, Boston College, Columbia, Brown, Rutgers, Harvard, Yale, Princeton.... etc. etc. etc.

[ShotgunBlast]

I can absolutely say I'm for the Constituion and post that.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The 10 Commandments hanging on the wall of a school A) isn't a law (that's been established) and B) doesn't prohibit anyone from walking right past it and worshipping Beelzebub if that's their cup of tea.

I would agree with you that our government shouldn't be in the religion business. In fact, about the only business I think the federal government should have their nose in is our national defense.

So then how come in all of these stories about the displaying of historical documents, the 10 commandments is the only religious historical document of the group? Where is the religious equality? You know, because the government isn't supposed to play favorites. Why is your religion represented but other good tax paying Americans don't have their religions represented? Why not just leave it out of government buildings altogether as widefat and Jakeiscrazy also suggested? The schools are having a hard enough time teaching our kids math and science. Save the religious education for your home or a private school.

By your comment "every socially conservative county in the US will be trying to sneak in the same thing", I can tell you and I aren't going to get along too well. In my opinion, the liberal a**hats who have waged war on Christians ("Oh, you can't say Merry Christmas to me, I'm an atheist, I'm offended!! Wah!!") are one reason the ACLU exists. AFAIC, the ACLU can take a dirt nap. Someone's offended? Go put on your big boy britches, pick yourself up, and just don't say anything if someone wishes you a merry holiday you don't observe (but I bet you they're buying the heck outta some gifts, huh?)

As a non religious person I don't have a problem with anyone saying "Merry Christmas" to me. I do however say "Happy Holidays" to others. Some may say that's just a bunch of politically correct bullcrap. I think of it as a basic respect for another's belief, no matter what they believe in. The ACLU does not pick fights with people that say "Merry Christmas" and using such a petty example does not make your point. Why is it that for you to have something (10 commandments in school), others have to be denied something (not having their religion represented)? That's not liberty. However, you will love the ACLU when they come to defend your religion if some Islamic citizens are trying to get the Koran into your kid's school. They're not forcing your kids to convert to Islam, so it's ok right?

The slippery slope argument has already begun, in my opinion, it's just headed in the opposite direction you posit.

in 1892, the Holy Trinity Church case, our own US Supreme Court stated in the ruling that "But, beyond all these matters, no purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people." (http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal ... /case.html)

That's a far cry from what our current Supreme Court would state, I dare say. The simple fact is, our country was founded as a Christian nation, and our education system arose out of the want to teach good and pious teachings, which Benjamin Rush and other framers of the Constitution believed could only come by teaching religious principals.

Like I said before, that's great when you're starting out from scratch, but fortunately we've been able to use the 200+ years this country has been around to shape and mold that framework into what we have today based on the diverse backgrounds of all of our citizens. You know, because all of us aren't Christians. Now you may not like that this country is so accepting of so many different cultures and religions whereas other countries in the world tend to have a strong majority. There's nothing I can say about that that will make you feel any better. The diverse background of its citizens is one of the things I think that make this country great.

How many of our nations early colleges and universities had a religious affiliation? I find it funny that the same people who cry wolf at a school having a copy of the 10 Commandments hanging in a hallway have no problem donning their Notre Dame ball cap... or Duke, or Loyola Marymount, Georgetown, Cornell, Baylor, Boston College, Columbia, Brown, Rutgers, Harvard, Yale, Princeton.... etc. etc. etc.

That's right and I'm one of them. I don't want religion in my public government institutions. My public schools that are the baseline education for the children of America. If you want to teach your kids religion at home or send them to a religious private school, no problem. But whether it's primary school, public community college, or a public university, keep the religious undertones out. You do know that all of the schools you mentioned are private universities and can have whatever religious affiliations they want right? I'll wear my Lynchburg College hat any day because even though they were a private school that could do whatever they wanted with their religious affiliation, you didn't get the impression that it was a religious school while you were going there.

Look, at the end of the day I believe I'm a decent person. I'm a law abiding tax paying citizen. I believe you're a decent person too. You and I have different viewpoints. I'm ok with that. All I ask is that in cases like these, one group doesn't benefit (Christians in this example) while everyone else gets the short end of the stick. That is not the kind of liberty that our country was founded on.

[dorminWS]

OK, CCFan & ShotGunBlast, what do you two constitutional scholars make of this:

The 1st Amendment to the Constitution protects freedom of speech as well as religion.

So, if you have freedom of speech AND freedom of religion, and if a writing is a form of speech, why can't you speak about religion wherever you damn well want to?

[CCFan]

I say there's no reason you can't... Which is why I said the government, by telling them they cannot display the 10 Commandments, is interfering.

Just my .02....

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[allingeneral]

Shall we remove "In God We Trust" from all coins now? Our country was founded on Christianity. It's everywhere. If you don't like it, then move to Kenya.