Carry gun shooting proficiency - what's good enough?

[Chasbo00]

In another thread, the issue of effective control came up regarding caliber/gun selection. Defining (actually quantifying and measuring) what we mean by effective is not easy. Lately, I've been struggling to come up with an easy-to-do and measure standard that's a viable good enough measure for those of us who carry. It's intended to be a minimum standard one should be able to perform with their carry gun(s). I would appreciate any thoughts or comments you may have and especially the results if you give it a try.

The 5s Standard

From the ready position (gun loaded and pointed down at 45 degree angle, safety off, finger outside trigger guard):

fire 5 rounds
in 5 seconds
at a 5 inch diameter target
at 5 yards distance
repeat for a total of 5 runs (25rds total)

Standard: All 25 rounds are within the 5 inch diameter target, else it's a fail

[Rualert]

I like this, sounds good to me. I tend to practice with my carry piece two clip drills at 15 yards max all shots in an IDPA A Zone / 0 center circle. If I am pulling any shots, start over, repeat until all shots hit their mark. I guess this comes from way back when I shot IPSC, my instructors insisted I shot accurately, and not worry about speed, as they put it, speed will come, hit your target. They were much wiser than I was, I guess that's why they were Masters, and Grand masters.

Rualert

[CCFan]

Think that 5-drill may be pretty good...

http://gunwriter.wordpress.com/2011/05/ ... ive-drill/

[Chasbo00]

My concern is that it may be a little too tough. I have not tried it yet; but, I suspect I'll have some difficulty with an LCP and maybe also with an airweight snubnose having a small grip, heavy trigger and hot loads.

[WRW]

Ok, the problem I have with timing the drill is that, to meet that goal (I am hesitant to use the word "standard") many would sacrifice safety. Even competitive shooters have mishaps. Running the drill methodically (safely) and showing speed improvement would be my goal.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[CCFan]

What's good enough is the best combat accurate group in the least amount of time in the safest possible manner.

Combat Accurate = hits on target, not nice neat little groups. If you stick with a 5" target that may be hard with a pocket carry .380, but you don't know until you try. If you stick with a 10" target at 7 yards, that's still going to be a "hit" on a threat - so it is that a failure in your book? If it collapses a lung and stops the threat, that's a "No" to failure in my book... If you take the line of reasoning that you're only half as good under duress, then maybe 5" groups *should* be the goal?

Least amount of time = no wasted fumbling with the draw, etc - the old "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast" - don't rush it, but deleberately and smoothly draw your firearm and be at the ready without grabbing your shirt with your drawing hand or *not* clicking off your safety if you have one,etc... and be ready to fire without any additional movement... If you like relating to numbers, look into the Tueller drill - a person with a knife can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds - and IIRC, the average amount of time *added* to drawing from concealment is ~ 1.5 seconds (could be wrong, it's been a while since I've studied it) - so, if you are aware and ready for the threat - then anything inside of 10 yards, you're going to have to be quick on the draw with no hiccups.

Safest manner possible = practice keeping your finger out of the trigger until you're on target, if you carry cross-draw, don't sweep yourself drawing, etc... For this, I'm guessing concealed carry in an IWB (or OWB under clothing) at the 4/5 o'clock...this is the area you can't always practice at the range, so dry-firing may help with presentation.

Now, how do you quantify that with numbers? Hard to say. Your experience isn't going to be mine, and ours isn't going to be someone elses. I think as long as you practice to do your personal best and you act from muscle memory instead of fumbling around, if you're mentally prepared to go through with that plan, that's about the best you can hope for..

That's just my take on it.

[Chasbo00]

I think the difference between a drill and a standard is that the former has the intent of building proficiency where the latter is intended to measure and validate some level of proficiency. I believe a good standard must be objective, quantifiable and measurable. What I'm trying to come up with is a standard that's easy to apply and that is also a fair measure of one's basic ability to shoot their carry gun at a minimally acceptable level of proficiency. This is not easy. We all appear to have somewhat different ideas of what good enough basic shooting proficiency is for John Q. Public, the gun carrying citizen. For a complete assessment of someone's readiness to be a responsible, safe and effective gun carrying citizen, several measures would be needed. At this point I'm just trying to focus on basic shooting skills - what's good enough and how could you easily measure it?

[CCFan]

You're asking the same questions over and over again. Only *you* can answer what's good enough for you.

Even with all the traing that police do year after year after year, you hear of "that one guy" that got shot in the head point blank with a 9mm and it got stuck under his skull and he walked away.

If some 130 lb mugger attacks, he may go down with a single shot because you got lucky. If a 240 lb guy on angel dust rushes you, you'd better be able to empty your mag on target until he's no longer moving. So what do you consider the average threat to be? Is "good enough" in your book 75% hits on the average assault that occurs daily? Or is it 99% hits on any and every situation you may run across? You're trying to nail jello to the wall, coming up with "good enough to measure"...

[Chasbo00]

You're asking the same questions over and over again. Only *you* can answer what's good enough for you.

Sorry, I think I assumed some things I wrote in another thread - my mistake.

Even with all the traing that police do year after year after year, you hear of "that one guy" that got shot in the head point blank with a 9mm and it got stuck under his skull and he walked away.

The police have minimum shooting proficiency standards that they are required to meet. I'm not so sure about their training though - sometimes it's pretty weak.

If some 130 lb mugger attacks, he may go down with a single shot because you got lucky. If a 240 lb guy on angel dust rushes you, you'd better be able to empty your mag on target until he's no longer moving. So what do you consider the average threat to be? Is "good enough" in your book 75% hits on the average assault that occurs daily? Or is it 99% hits on any and every situation you may run across? You're trying to nail jello to the wall, coming up with "good enough to measure"...

I admit is far from easy, but are you saying it's not sensible to have a minimum shooting standard or set of minimum shooting proficiency standards?

[CCFan]

I don't want it dictated, no... But for the sake of discussion, if a standard is set, its usually as you say, a minimum of a measured level of proficiency. What are you trying to measure? What's an acceptible level of failure? None? If none, should one be able to protect against 99.9999% of all threats? Or like I said earlier, is being able to protect against the most common threats the goal? If the most common threats are the goal, then I guess we compile data on the most common threats... At what point did first contact occur? How many yards, how many seconds did it take to escalate to a minimal level of engagement necessary to use deadly force?

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Chasbo00]

Regarding standards as discussed here, they are not meant to limit or restrict anyone's carry rights in any way. My belief is that firearm's training should be the individual's responsibility - not the government's. In fact, I'm adamantly opposed to any state or federally mandated firearms training for citizens who do not carry a gun as a requirement of their job.

As to what I'm seeking to measure, it's an able bodied person's basic shooting ability with their carry gun. A simple go / no-go standard that could indicate if more training or practice is needed. I think some accommodations will be necessary for those who are not able bodied; for example, a man with Parkinson's Disease or 80 year old lady with minimal hand strength.

I don't think it's particularly useful to try to come up with a typical self defense shooting scenario(s). There are just too many variables at play and I don't even know of any good sources of valid data regarding self defensive shootings involving civilians rather than police or military personnel. I recently read an analysis of about 500 non-random civilian defense shootings that stated the average shots fired was two and the vast majority of shooting distances were slightly beyond arms length. Does this mean we should not practice shooting beyond two yards - I don't think so.

Not related to the above, but after some consideration, I'm now thinking that the target for the standard I listed at the start of this thread should use a standard letter sized sheet of paper (8.5x11 inches) rather than the 5-inch circle. This I think is a more realistically sized and shaped target.

[SHMIV]

Would this standard apply to a single action carry gun, as well? One's hand would have more to do in that one second between the shots.

[Chasbo00]

Would this standard apply to a single action carry gun, as well? One's hand would have more to do in that one second between the shots.

If that's their carry gun choice, sure - why not? More than a few cowboy action shooters with a SA revolver can smoke me shooting my favorite semi-auto on my best day. Pocket guns don't get a break either. This is a proposed standard for all carry guns.

[ffhounddog]

I think People need to try a little more with one had if they are safe about it. Most of the time when I was a Reserve police officer we had to do the one hand drill and weak hand drill. In Iraq when I was getting my guys out of the middle of a firefight I used my M9 while dragging the soldier back. Shooting a M9 with the left hand is actually not as hard as shooting a Glock one handed even a 9mm GLock,

Now making sure all the shot get on target is important. If you have a flyer in a defensive situation it could be worse than getting mugged. That is why you should practive you pistol shooting as much as you can. More than Rifle shooting.

[Chasbo00]

I'm a strong supporter of one-handed training too. How much extra time, if any, do you think the standard should be adjusted up for strong-hand only runs? I have not yet convinced myself that weak hand only drills and standards are needed for the non-professional gun carrier.

[mk4]

i do lots of one-handed training, both strong and weak hand. i also practice one-handed mag drops and reloads. and... the best of all, racking the slide one-handed. the key is training until these things become ingrained in muscle memory.

[Chasbo00]

i do lots of one-handed training, both strong and weak hand. i also practice one-handed mag drops and reloads. and... the best of all, racking the slide one-handed. the key is training until these things become ingrained in muscle memory.

I'll bet you don't consider yourself to be a minimally proficient basic level shooter.

You should consider giving some of those skills a workout by shooting some matches.

[mk4]

i do lots of one-handed training, both strong and weak hand. i also practice one-handed mag drops and reloads. and... the best of all, racking the slide one-handed. the key is training until these things become ingrained in muscle memory.

I'll bet you don't consider yourself to be a minimally proficient basic level shooter.

no... but i'm a firm believer in continuous improvement and continuing education, for everyone.

[Chasbo00]

Come on out and join us shooting some matches where you'll get the chance to use some of those skills and have a lot fun doing it to boot. [Posted similar as an edit to my previous post while you were posting]

[ConfederateHokie]

Like most, I can only give my own opinion of what works for me. Never enough practice, can't ever get good enough. Period. I do like the idea of the five yard drill but from a concealed draw.

I shoot the IDPA qualifier COF at least once a month. To me, it seems to be good practice. If you can shoot the classifier with 99% of your shots down zero, you should feel comfortable should you have to draw and fire in an emergency.

JMHO YMMV
Tim