Failed to disclose my VA CPL during a traffic stop in MI

unas2k5 · Post by **unas2k5** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 17:12:53

I was pulled over on the freeway in MI and I failed to disclose my CPL to the police officer.

The law in MI states that one must disclose it while carrying.

I was given a ticket for this and they said they will report the violation to the VA CPL board.

Will I lose my CPL?

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wally626 · Post by **wally626** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 17:22:35

What VA CPL board?

unas2k5 · Post by **unas2k5** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 17:24:14

I don't know that's what the officer said. I know that in VA we aren't required to show the officer out CPL. The officer said that VA might take away my CPL because of this violation.

What do you guys think?

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Post by **Palladin** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 17:46:07

If you didn't tell him, how did he find out?

when in Rome...

unas2k5 · Post by **unas2k5** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 17:58:23

He searched the car and found it.

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mk4 · Post by **mk4** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 18:01:31

what was his ras for searching, or did you just comply with his request to search?

eta: what was his reason for stopping you in the first place?

Post by **OakRidgeStars** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 18:45:59

The cop's blowing smoke up your holster. Talk to a local gun friendly lawyer and see what they think.

http://www.hkshooter.net/lawyers/

Jakeiscrazy · Post by **Jakeiscrazy** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 19:32:07

Forget what the cop told you what does the ticket say you have to do?

mk4 · Post by **mk4** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 19:57:13

OakRidgeStars wrote:The cop's blowing smoke up your holster.

@ORS:

@OP: i did some homework for you (see below). italics for emphasis and spacing for readability, are my additions.

check the statute listed on whatever summons/ticket you got. does it match the info below? if so, at least for mi cpl holders, it's a civil infraction and mi can impose a civil fine up to $500 and suspend a cpl for 6 months. pretty sure mi can fine you, but can't suspend your va chp. maybe suspend your reciprocity? disclaimer: ianal.

still curious, though... absent ras resulting in detention on the stop and not being given a choice, why consent to the vehicle search? please don't say the officer used the "what's the big deal if you've got nothing to hide" line. that's such a load crap.

=====

(from http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents ... rearms.pdf)

FIREARMS LAWS OF MICHIGAN — 2011

FIREARMS
Act 372 of 1927
.
.
.

(on pgs 24-25)

28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty;
seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.

Sec. 5f.
(1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.

(2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
(a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.
(b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.

(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

(4) An individual who violates subsection (1) or (2) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00.

(5) An individual who violates subsection (3) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined as follows:
(a) For a first offense, by a fine of not more than $500.00 or by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being suspended for 6 months, or both.
(b) For a subsequent offense within 3 years of a prior offense, by a fine of not more than $1,000.00 and by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being revoked.

(6) If an individual is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this section, the court shall notify the department of state police and the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license of that determination.

(7) A pistol carried in violation of this section is subject to immediate seizure by a peace officer. If a peace officer seizes a pistol under this subsection, the individual has 45 days in which to display his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer. If the individual displays his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer within the 45-day period, the authorized employee of that law enforcement entity shall return the pistol to the individual unless the individual is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. If the individual does not display his or her license or documentation within the 45-day period, the pistol is subject to forfeiture as provided in section 5g. A pistol is not subject to immediate seizure under this subsection if both of the following circumstances exist:
(a) The individual has his or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card in his or her possession when the violation occurs.
(b) The peace officer verifies through the law enforcement information network that the individual is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol.

(8) As used in this section, "peace officer" includes a motor carrier officer appointed under section 6d of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6d, and security personnel employed by the state under section 6c of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6c.

History: Add. 2000, Act 381, Eff. July 1, 2001;¾Am. 2002, Act 719, Eff. July 1, 2003;¾Am. 2008, Act 194, Eff. Jan. 7, 2009.

Popular name: CCW
Popular name: Concealed Weapons
Popular name: CPL
Popular name: Right to Carry
Popular name: Shall Issue

MNMGoneShooting · Post by **MNMGoneShooting** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:34:36

The way that law reads, if you are a permit holder, but YOU ARE NOT CARRYING a weapon, then there is no obligation. There is an "and" clause in that statement that links the two conditions together.

I don't see a violation here.

mk4 · Post by **mk4** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:50:30

@MNMGS...
the op didn't explicitly state whether he was ccw or not. there's actually a lot the op hasn't stated. i would hope that the mi officer would know mi law well enough to not cite if there was no handgun 'on or about' the op. 'hope' being the operative word.

similarly, i would rather the mi officer not assume how va law might or might not sanction a va resident with a va chp.

unas2k5 · Post by **unas2k5** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:23:46

Thanks everyone.

So I assume that I won't be getting my CPL revoked for violating another states CPL law.

He ran my VA license and said that I have an unpaid ticket in MI and I have a suspension/can't drive in MI.

He cited me for DWLS and the failure to disclose. He said I would be going to jail but anyone would steal a car like mine found on the side of the freeway and that he would, himself . He found the gun in the car when he searched after I told him that he has no permission to search it. I mean he was a big a-hole, I was in handcuffs for 40 minutes. He pulls a 12 Mustang Gt for loud exhaust on the FREEWAY with VA plates! It really isn't that loud. He was just bored.I even have to go there March 5 for court.

unas2k5 · Post by **unas2k5** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:26:10

He also said that I BETTER NOT drive the car so I had to pay a tow truck to tow it over to the NEXT city $140 then I drove off from there. LOL

It was 5:30AM and was rushing to make it to a FUNERAL.

mk4 · Post by **mk4** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:01:06

to be clear, i'm only presuming that mi can't sanction your va chp, other than maybe mi reciprocity(?). it seems reasonable though, that a mi court of record can't vacate a va circuit court order (your chp). my disclaimer, once again, is that i am not a lawyer.

so i understand correctly...
1) you were stopped for excessive noise. legal, as long as there's an actual statute, which i presume there is. annoying? maybe, but if it's their law, then they can do it and cite for it.
2) on running your va dl, the officer sees your license (read as 'privilege') to drive *in mi* is suspended because of an unpaid prior ticket.
3) from what i'm reading, in mi, dwls (1st offense) is a misdemeanor that can carry penalties of up to 93 days in jail, up to a $500 fine, or both, so you were under arrest at that point.
4) again, i'm not a lawyer, so i don't know if being under arrest for dwls is actually ras to search, or if the officer even needs ras at that point.

bottom line is that if one is going to legally carry/conceal, interstate, it's incumbent for the carrier to understand and follow the laws of each state where they may be. unfamiliarity of the law won't be a good bet at a defense in court. http://www.handgunlaw.us/ is a good place to start.

you may wish to get a lawyer licensed in mi to represent you. mar 5 isn't very far away.

eta: is this is what got you suspended?
http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-12 ... --,00.html

mk4 · Post by **mk4** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:04:38

unas2k5 wrote:He also said that I BETTER NOT drive the car so I had to pay a tow truck to tow it over to the NEXT city $140 then I drove off from there. LOL

It was 5:30AM and was rushing to make it to a FUNERAL.

next city??
he didn't make you take it out of state? so... you could have been stopped and cited for dwls in mi a second time?!?

unas2k5 · Post by **unas2k5** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:11:04

mk4 wrote:to be clear, i'm only presuming that mi can't sanction your va chp, other than maybe mi reciprocity(?). it seems reasonable though, that a mi court of record can't vacate a va circuit court order (your chp). my disclaimer, once again, is that i am not a lawyer.

so i understand correctly...
1) you were stopped for excessive noise. legal, as long as there's an actual statute, which i presume there is. annoying? maybe, but if it's their law, then they can do it and cite for it.
2) on running your va dl, the officer sees your license (read as 'privilege') to drive *in mi* is suspended because of an unpaid prior ticket.
3) from what i'm reading, in mi, dwls (1st offense) is a misdemeanor that can carry penalties of up to 93 days in jail, up to a $500 fine, or both, so you were under arrest at that point.
4) again, i'm not a lawyer, so i don't know if being under arrest for dwls is actually ras to search, or if the officer even needs ras at that point.

bottom line is that if one is going to legally carry/conceal, interstate, it's incumbent for the carrier to understand and follow the laws of each state where they may be. unfamiliarity of the law won't be a good bet at a defense in court. http://www.handgunlaw.us/ is a good place to start.

you may wish to get a lawyer licensed in mi to represent you. mar 5 isn't very far away.

eta: is this is what got you suspended?
http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-12 ... --,00.html

I really appreciate your input. Yes, I will definitely hire an attorney for this.
Yes, that's got to be it. Thanks

unas2k5 · Post by **unas2k5** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:12:05

mk4 wrote:
unas2k5 wrote:He also said that I BETTER NOT drive the car so I had to pay a tow truck to tow it over to the NEXT city $140 then I drove off from there. LOL

It was 5:30AM and was rushing to make it to a FUNERAL.
next city??
he didn't make you take it out of state? so... you could have been stopped and cited for dwls in mi a second time?!?

Yes, he said he doesn't give a poop and that he only cares about his city. LOL

meak99 · Post by **meak99** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:15:30

I'll reiterate what mk4 already stated... it is incumbent on all persons who carry a gun, whether open or concealed, to know the laws of the state/locality in which they plan on carrying.

mk4 · Post by **mk4** » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:20:50

unas2k5 wrote:...snip...

I really appreciate your input. Yes, I will definitely hire an attorney for this.
Yes, that's got to be it. Thanks

definitely ask about the legality of the search. it might save you some headaches down the line for having anything firearm+law+citation associated with your name.

best of luck.
please post back to let us know how it all turns out. your experiences may help someone, downstream.

scott9050 · Post by **scott9050** » Thu, 01 Mar 2012 12:40:15

Did the cop have a camera? If you objected to the search, it should have been recorded and the gun would be inadmissible.

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