Sons of Guns and Law Enforcement

[chi804]

So I've thought about this a number of times while watching the Discovery Channel show, "Sons of Guns" and while I think that the show is definitely entertaining, I always ask myself, "why would police need a mark 19?" And then I think to myself, "how are we as a populous supposed to protect ourselves from a force that has artillery or weaponry that almost absolutely makes the citizenry defenseless from the forces that are there to protect us?" Military is different as the constitution spells out that the military is not a police force and that job is going to be left up to the states but if local governments wanted to suppress its citizenry and they had weapons such as the mark 19, fully automatic machine guns(which they already have), and as seen in one episode, a damn rocket launcher, the private citizens that own guns would never have a chance.
Then I think to myself, "well, should the odds be even and private citizens be able to own modern combat machinery and weapon systems? Should we be able to protect ourselves from an overwhelming force by at least matching that force with the same weapons systems that our tax dollars give to our police?"
I'm not an anarchist by any stretch of the imagination but the way I see it, we should be able to deter the people tasked with protecting us from taking advantage or forcing us to give up our rights by brutal force. I'm not saying that that would ever happen but I would think some people would agree with me that, there's always a chance that when one group of people has the power and potential to forcefully impose its will upon the other group of people it will eventually happen. Maybe not en masse but the potential is definitely there right? Thoughts?

[SHMIV]

Personally, I believe that the citizenry should have access to any weapon that is available to the police force or the military. It's one of the ways in which we are to keep our government in line.

[OakRidgeStars]

What's the latest on Red Jacket?. Are they still upside down with the ATF?

http://vagunforum.net/general-discussio ... 11413.html

[chi804]

Personally, I believe that the citizenry should have access to any weapon that is available to the police force or the military. It's one of the ways in which we are to keep our government in line.

Well, if you have enough money and connections, you can. But I think your point is that we shouldn't have to go through the bureaucratic excrement and monitoring. The balance of firepower should be equal. But wouldn't that make access of those weapons system only available to the people that could afford them? And wouldn't gangs or radical militias that were financially supported by our "enemies" have an advantage and possibly leave us more vulnerable to thugs or organized crime?
Would an LEO care to comment?

[TimberWolf]

I saw that episode of "Son's of Guns" where they pump the mark 19 and the belt fed machine gun on a police boat. There is absolutely no need for police to have that sort of firepower. If there is a incident that requires that response then I would think it would be an act of war or terrorism which would require military action not a police response.

Police are primarily a preventative and investigative force. I don't support the militarization of local police. I find with protective equipment such as bullet resistant vests, but I certainly don't think police need access to grenade launchers and fully automatic guns. They are not trained or equipped to handle their use and I don't think they are able to handle the responsibility of the aftermath such weapons would create. Police should be able to competently protect the citizenry and themselves, but not wage war.

For my final rant - I think the people at Sons of Guns are poor representatives of the gun community. They are not safe, nor practical. If it were up to them the only viable gun would be a short barrel Saiga 12 gauge or some ridiculous contraption that they put together.

[SHMIV]

But wouldn't that make access of those weapons system only available to the people that could afford them? And wouldn't gangs or radical militias that were financially supported by our "enemies" have an advantage and possibly leave us more vulnerable to thugs or organized crime?

Not necessarily. You're assuming that to be the only change to society. When I say all weapons, I do mean all weapons. Not just guns. But, if that were the case, the collective mindset would be a whole lot different. Granted, it could go one of two ways. One would be complete anarchy, and the other would be a civil, but independent society. I suppose that their are other directions in which things could go, but I wouldn't know what they would be, off hand (except to point out the obvious end to total anarchy, which is that the biggest, meanest SOB becomes the new dictator).

But, in the civil, but independent society, which is the society that our forefathers intended, we wouldn't need anywhere near the police force that some believe we need today. We'd all simply keep each other in check. Of course, this system works on the same principle that our Constitution would, if John Adams is to be believed. Adams, of course, pointed out that our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people, and that it was wholly inadequate for any other people.

I suppose that you could say that therein lies the flaw to my reasoning. Perhaps. But, most people still have some sense of morals, even if they do lack "religion". That, of course, begs the question of on what it is that their morals are based, but that is a discussion for another thread.

[Nikon]

Hello just reg to post here if you listoned to what was sead on the eps the Sons of guns team set up a "demo" of what was possible to be installed on that boat i live in south GA an visted New Orleans this xmas any way it was one of the first things i noticed driving over jefferson parish bridge was the m19 was not on the boat
im gessing thay pulled that from there private collection an putt it in to beaf things up i allso tryed going by the shop witch is by appointment only so sadly i didnt get to go in anyway i dont think the cop bought the m19 i think thay just got the mount Mgun an "smoke" gas launchers from the sides of the boad. i also think we shoud be able to build and or pruches this weapon but thats never going to happen. also if you search "sons of guns dec 29" this is the second to first search result on google.. thats how i found this borad....

[Diomed]

Well, as a practical matter, the stuff on SOG is staged; most of the guns actually never change hands. It's a pretty sweet arrangement - Discovery pays for the guns and RJ keeps them.

But on the philosophical issue of police firepower, I agree. The police are far too well armed relative to the population. The old Peel maxim, "The police are the public and the public are the police", is dead, and we're the worse for it. It's us versus them.

What's the latest on Red Jacket?. Are they still upside down with the ATF?

No, they're fine.

[chi804]

Interesting responses but still no LEO or retired LEO thought or ideas.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[selvaracing]

About the post that Law Enforcement doesnt have the training to use heavy weapons, that is not neccisarily true. Partly right that the average patrol flatfoot may not have the specific training. But anyone assigned to a special unit, such as SWAT or someone asigned to a patrol boat equipped with a machine gun, yes, they have to not only be sopecifically trained for state liability issues, but most guys or gals assigned to a special weapons position usually is not selected unless they have some special military background. Im not simply talking about a guy that did his two years in the Army, but SWAT guys are usually selected by current team members and they pick guys with SEAL/Ranger/Spec Ops backround. Much as the Navy SEAL Team operators are selected. For Police SWAT, anyone can apply, anyone physically able can pass all the tests. But final interviews and selection are made by the current team memebers. Then if you are on a team, it doesnt mean that they hand you an M19. You must undego more specialized training on that weapon, and sometimes the Army or Marines are involved in the training of LEO's on the use of military style weapons.

On the episode of Sons of Guns, Will mentioned that the Sheriff was looking into options to improve firepower on their patrol boat. What I got out of it was that it was simply a demo. It was obvious that the Sheriff himself, and the boat operator had little experience with an M19. Notice how when they got on that thing they just opened up on the target boat and ran the full nine yards without letting up once? Thats not a real world practical use of that weapon. Will mentioned the need for that weapon was to have something on hand should the Sheriff boat have to respond to a terrorist threat in the oil rig area. Here in CA, LAPD and LA Sheriff have boats with heavy weapons available because they patrol LA Harbor, a prime terroist target and the US Navy base that used to be here is now closed and gone. The LA Sheriff even has a PT Boat bought from the Navy that it uses to respond to terrorist threats.

[selvaracing]

Oh yeah, and you do not know how grateful you should be about your gun laws in VA. Here in CA, a cop can carry a pea shooter and have the average citizen out gunned. In CA , juat a few days ago, it became law that we cannot carry ANY firearm in any public place. At least we had the gun shows, where we could wear an "Unloaded" gun in a holster and kind of pretend we have gun rights. but now, we can not even do that. Our Socialist Republic legislature has done it again. No gun may be concealed or openly displayed in public. PERIOD! i would never worry about the Police having a single M19 mounted on a patrol boat. Hopefully they will use it on some stupid wannabe terrorist that would TRY to attack something in the harbor. Let him meet up with that M19 out there, the average cop still only carries a single pistol, and that leaves him outgunned by the local gangmembers whom seem to be constantly caught with automatic weapons(at least they dont know how to use em)