full auto weapons

[dorminWS]

I think I read here that if a full auto weapon is owned/possessed by a person and is not registered/licensed, there is no way to get it legal. Is that correct?

[dorminWS]

Don't be afraid to answer; I don't have such a weapon or know anybody that does. I'm not contemplating nor have I committed any illegal act concerning firearms; nor do I know anybody that has. I was just in a converstion and stated I thought I'd read that you couldn't legalize an unregistered full-auto weapon; and gotr challenged on it.

You can all exhale now.

[SHMIV]

It's not that I have a fear of answering, I just don't know the answer. I don't care if anyone owns one; Constitutionally speaking, I believe that everyone has the right to own them, should they desire. "Legally" speaking, on the other hand, is a whole different ball of wax.

[grumpyMSG]

You are correct. Something sticks in my mind that there was one of historical significance captured by Sergeant York that ended up in the attic of a building (Public Library I think) and was found when the building was remodeled. It was found then creating a legal dilemna...

[gunderwood]

Generally yes, you can not make it legal. Diomed knows the ins and outs better and there are a few exceptions to the rule.

[Diomed]

The window to register existing NFA items closed in December 1968. So, anything that's a NFA firearm now is either registered or contraband.

Governmental agencies can register existing NFA firearms but they become untouchable by anyone but the government. So, that's not much of a solution.

If your gun is a bringback, do everything you possibly can to search for official paperwork that mentions that gun. Real bringback paperwork counts as registration (though typically one has to sue to get it added to the ATF's registry, but there's plenty of precedent so it's not much of a risk).

You are correct. Something sticks in my mind that there was one of historical significance captured by Sergeant York that ended up in the attic of a building (Public Library I think) and was found when the building was remodeled. It was found then creating a legal dilemna...

There is apparently a very interesting story behind what happened with that gun, I've only gotten a little glimpse from someone involved with the case and I'm not sure it's for public consumption. Suffice to say it worked out about as well as it possibly could (and better than I'd expected it to when I first heard about the find).

[dorminWS]

The window to register existing NFA items closed in December 1968. So, anything that's a NFA firearm now is either registered or contraband.

If your gun is a bringback, do everything you possibly can to search for official paperwork that mentions that gun.
).

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Done told you: I don't have such a gun. It was a hypothetical question as far as I know.

[fireman836]

Wiliam Hayden has an article in Guns & Ammo Magazine about Class 3 weapons.
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2011/10/19/h ... e-weapons/
includes video explaining some of the information.

[Oakes]

I remember reading about amnesty guns and dealer samples.
Not sure if anyone knows what these are?

[Diomed]

Done told you: I don't have such a gun. It was a hypothetical question as far as I know.

It was the general "you". Geez.

I remember reading about amnesty guns and dealer samples.
Not sure if anyone knows what these are?

Amnesty guns are those registered during the 1968 amnesty, which ran for the month of November. This covered everything, from AOWs to the newly-created class called destructive devices. The registration was tax-free and, while the registrant admitted that they had violated the law, they were relieved of any legal liability for it. (State laws were still an issue, but the IRS, and later ATF, does not rat out owners of registered NFA items in ban states - but they can't lawfully do anything, from a federal perspective, but get them out of state. This is how you will sometimes see legal NFA items being sold out of New York, New Jersey, or California.) But that relief only went so far - stolen government property was/is still stolen government property. Some folks lost M14s, M16s, M60s, etc. that they registered in the amnesty but had obtained through less than legit means.

Amnesty guns were registered on the Form 4467.

(There was also an amnesty in 1934, running three months. But one seldom finds guns from that one.)

Pre-samples are one of the four classes of machineguns. (There's no formal class system, but it's easier to think of it that way.) Imagine a pyramid with four levels. At the top there is the transferable machinegun. Anyone who's not disabled can possess it. It's the most expensive, though not the rarest. The next level down is the pre-sample. To obtain it one must be a FFL with a SOT. They cost about half what a transferable version of the same gun costs; there are probably the fewest of this type. The next level down is the post-sample. One must have a FFL and SOT to get them, but with more restrictions than for a pre-sample. The cost is usually about a tenth of what a transferable version of the same gun goes for. At the bottom you have Form 10 guns. Only the government may have these. They are, from a legal marketplace perspective, worthless.

The story of pre-samples is this. The Gun Control Act contained a provision that prohibited the importation of NFA items for public consumption (before that, it was possible to import machineguns, etc. and sell them to the public). Importation was only allowed for the government and for the industry, to use as sales samples. Guns that are imported are forever tainted, and cannot be released for sale outside the trade/government circle. (There are some ways to get around it, but that's not relevant here.) In order to obtain one of these samples, you have to have a FFL and a SOT. There are no other restrictions. Once you get it, you can give up the FFL and/or SOT and still keep the sample. However, you can only dispose of it to a current FFL/SOT or governmental agency, so your kids can't inherit it unless they're FFL/SOTs.

So, pre-samples are usually foreign made machineguns that came about between 1968 and 1986. Stuff like MPL/MPKs, Uzis, PM12s, Minimis, everything HK, and a smattering of combloc. It also includes US weapons that were re-imported during that time, so you see Thompsons, BARs, grease guns and the like. And of course anything else anyone wanted to bring in at the time. Prices are usually about half what a transferable version brings. For example, a sample Uzi is usually about $3k, while a transferable is around $6k. The difference, other than the legal stuff, is that the pre-sample is a factory machinegun while the transferable is a conversion of a semiauto. HK stuff is usually a bit more expensive, with a sample MP5 running ~9k versus a transferable at 16k.

They're called pre-samples now to differentiate them from post-samples. New machineguns were banned in 1986, so the rules changed again. Only SOTs may make or possess machineguns manufactured after the cutoff. Imported machineguns have to be released directly from customs bond to a government agency. If they make it back into industry circulation they're treated as post-samples, meaning that in most cases a FFL/SOT must have a letter from a government agency requesting a demo of that model firearm, and if the dealer gives up their SOT, they must get rid of the post-sample.

Due to the restrictions, and the fact that they're still being made, post-sample machineguns are very cheap, usually the same or slightly more than their semiauto counterparts (and sometimes less). A new M16 from Colt runs around $1k, last time I checked. Same for a MP5 (not that HK will sell one to a dealer even if they have a demo letter).

I hope that sheds some light on the subject. The subject is actually more detailed and intricate than what I just wrote, but I have neither the time nor patience to write out a complete guide.

[jrswanson1]

Due to FOPA, no new full auto firearms are allowed to be registered with BATFE. Before that, you could buy an AR-15, send your form in for the tax stamp, and convert it to full auto. That part of the FOPA needs to be repealed, it didn't actually pass the House floor.

[dorminWS]

Done told you: I don't have such a gun. It was a hypothetical question as far as I know.

It was the general "you". Geez.

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Didn't mean for you to get your bowels in an uproar. I just don't want there to be any intimation or even a scintilla of suspicion that I ever had possession or even knowledge of someone else's possession of such a thing. The rules on them are convoluted and the sanctions are draconian. And we don't know WHO may be monitoring this forum, now, do we?

[TenchCoxe]

That is correct. If you discover a fully automatic firearm that never was registered, it is contraband and there is no way to register it.

This is another topic that was discussed at some length in the Firearms Law in Virginia seminar yesterday. Steve Halbrook identified a few options for legally disposing of the firearm. Probably the best one was to contact a military musem (e.g., the Marine Corps Museum in Quantico) and donate it to them. The military is not required to register fully auto weapons. But you don't want to transport it to them - you call them and have them come pick it up and take it away.

Of course, you run into a problem if they don't want it.

There were one or two other options discussed, but the general answer was that if you can't find a legal way to get rid of it, the other option was to disable it by eliminating the feature that made it meet the statutory definition of a machine gun - although that definition includes the frame or receiver. So you could strip out any parts that might have value but that do not meet the definition of "machin gun", and then scrap the receiver. Or, as one of the panelists suggested "take it out on your boat and dump it in the middle of the Chesapeake Bay."

I pointed out that you would be violating EPA and Coast Guard regulations if you did that...