False Patriotism

[SilentServiceVet]

Can some of the self-descrribed patriots explain something for me; what exactly is there to be proud of in regards to your nationality?

The nation you're born in is an accident of birth, much like your eye color, race, and socioeconomic status. Why does one take pride in something they literally had nothing to do with?

I'm not as awed by your magnificence. Out of sheer morbid curiosity, do you ask questions like this because you honestly think this is a valid point that contributes to the conversation?

What I mean is, one has absolutely nothing to do with the other -- there is no connection. Being 'lucky" for being an American by birth (and Southern by the grace of God, in my case) does not mean that one should then not be patriotic for being so fortunate. I didn't build my Sig P226, so I shouldn't have pride of ownership? I take ownership of my citizenship in the United States, and for that I am proud.

Patriotism for one's country is the realization, appreciation, and pride of knowing that we live in the greatest country on Earth. And since none of us are capable of picking where we're going to be born beforehand, it's obviously not a choice we could've made earlier. You're either lucky or you're not, but again it doesn't preclude you from celebrating the fact.

Also, while eye color and race (e.g. traits of "ethnicity") are due to genetics, "socioeconomic" status is not an "accident of birth" -- it is a starting point. You may start out poor or rich, but you can end up the opposite of either due to choices. That's the great thing about the U.S. that some people want to ignore. Here, we can indeed pursue happiness, and that can and often does include success and wealth. Case in point, I was born and raised on a cattle farm in a small (less than 10k people) town in the Ozark Mountain range in north, central Arkansas, to a humble family. We didn't have much, but we had enough. I CHOSE to enlist in the military, get a college degree, and become what *I* consider to be "successful." Others who never improve their lot in life are, in my humble opinion, lazy and/or unmotivated. I have zero sympathy for them.

[dorminWS]

@ Kreutz:

Apparently, there were people like you in Sir Walter Scott's time. too:
......................................
Breathes there the man with soul so dead
Who never to himself hath said,
This is my own, my native land!
Whose heart hath ne’er within him burned,
As home his footsteps he hath turned
From wandering on a foreign strand!
If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
For him no minstrel raptures swell;
High though his titles, proud his name,
Boundless his wealth as wish can claim
Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
The wretch, concentred all in self,
Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
And, doubly dying, shall go down
To the vile dust from whence he sprung,
Unwept, unhonored , and unsung.
.................................................

Could it be that the answer to Sir Walter's question is,
"Yes. His name is Kreutz."

[wylde007]

Like it or not the CSA fired the first shots, and it was after those shots were fired that Virginia joined the CSA.

You're joking, right?

The federal garrison was ordered to surrender Moultrie, so they spiked the guns and fled to Sumter under cover of darkness. SC, exercising its sovereignty, demanded the feds vacate/abandon SOUTH CAROLINA property. Buchanan and Lincoln had already conspired to send a flotilla to reinforce and reprovision the garrison, knowing full well that South Carolina was ready to secede and would want their rightful property back.

The government of South Carolina FIRED FIRST because they were defending their interests against interloping yankees.

It's the fact we have homegrown Commie scum right here in this country that hates Free Speech, Owning Weapons, Making money (AND KEEPING IT), and the freedom to succeed/fail ON YOUR OWN TERMS!

On whose own terms? Have you read the CFR lately? Do you know how many reams of regulations must be obliged just to "make it on your own"?

And about that "keeping what you make" rubbish... We have the second-highest corporate tax rate in the world and the average private citizen must work until tax day to actually pay for his personal tax liability. I mean, assuming he is in the upper 25% of earners who pay 85% of all income taxes, that is.

Silly facts getting in the way of a good argument!

The Constitution may allow you to make any gesture you want as an act of political expression, but THIS is what gives me the RIGHT UNDER THE LAW OF THE LAND TO SALUTE!

Do you obey the entire flag code? I'll bet you a steak dinner you don't.

You have the "right" to salute however you want. You have the absolute right to express your undying adoration for and subservience to the state. I'm not fooled by them and my allegiance is not now, nor ever will be, to the despicable yankee state.

"Indivisible"? Only because of military force and coercion.

Glad my mother didn't raise a fool.

You're sure about that?

[Kreutz]

I'm not as awed by your magnificence. Out of sheer morbid curiosity, do you ask questions like this because you honestly think this is a valid point that contributes to the conversation?

Seems like a legit question to me, or did it interrupt the 'Merica orgy?

What I mean is, one has absolutely nothing to do with the other -- there is no connection. Being 'lucky" for being an American by birth (and Southern by the grace of God, in my case) does not mean that one should then not be patriotic for being so fortunate. I didn't build my Sig P226, so I shouldn't have pride of ownership? I take ownership of my citizenship in the United States, and for that I am proud.

Not sure how a material item compares to the intangible nature of partiotism.

Patriotism for one's country is the realization, appreciation, and pride of knowing that we live in the greatest country on Earth. And since none of us are capable of picking where we're going to be born beforehand, it's obviously not a choice we could've made earlier. You're either lucky or you're not, but again it doesn't preclude you from celebrating the fact.

Just seems lazy to me. I'd rather take pride in my own accomplishments rather than piggyback on my dead ancestors or the random nation I was born in.

If you were born in Switzerland, China, Poland, or any other nation on earth would you conversely be ashamed you missed the "lucky" American uterus?

[SHMIV]

Just seems lazy to me. I'd rather take pride in my own accomplishments rather than piggyback on my dead ancestors or the random nation I was born in.

It's a different source of pride.

You mean to tell us, Kreutz, that none of your relatives have done something great, worthwhile, or interesting? And if they have, you don't feel any sort of pride just in being related to them? Such things aren't piggybacking or laziness. In the case of relatives, it's a source of inspiration, or a motivator. For example, I look at what all my preceding relatives have done, the character that they were known for, and it inspires me. The same thing translates to nationality. Americans have accomplished a great many things; it's inspiring.

[SilentServiceVet]

Seems like a legit question to me, or did it interrupt the 'Merica orgy?

I think we both know it wasn't a legit question but rather your method of screwin' with people. So, I guess you hate 'Merica?

What I mean is, one has absolutely nothing to do with the other -- there is no connection. Being 'lucky" for being an American by birth (and Southern by the grace of God, in my case) does not mean that one should then not be patriotic for being so fortunate. I didn't build my Sig P226, so I shouldn't have pride of ownership? I take ownership of my citizenship in the United States, and for that I am proud.

Not sure how a material item compares to the intangible nature of partiotism.

Are you a Liberal? Because you completely ignored my point and went straight to my example, trying to dismantle it as a distraction. My point is still valid -- being lucky for being an American by birth does not mean that one should not then be patriotic. One has nothing to do with the other.

Just seems lazy to me. I'd rather take pride in my own accomplishments rather than piggyback on my dead ancestors or the random nation I was born in.

If you were born in Switzerland, China, Poland, or any other nation on earth would you conversely be ashamed you missed the "lucky" American uterus?

To each his own, I guess, but patriotism and self-pride are also not one in the same. But if you see my signature, you can see that I took my selfish patriotism and joined the military where I proudly served on a fast attack submarine, worked at the W.H. under two Presidents (Clinton & Bush 43), visited 45 countries, and put my butt on the line overseas. I walked the walk. But Americans don't HAVE to do what I did to be patriotic. They just have to love their country.

As for your question, we were talking about the U.S. and being patriotic. Nobody said anything about people being born outside the U.S. should be "ashamed" they weren't born here, so you're reaching there. In some countries, I'd wager they would give everything they have to come here, and some have done just that to pursue the "American Dream."

I will say that during a 30-day foreign exchange program during high school I was selected to go to Schorndorf, Germany, in 1990, just 7 months after the wall fell in Berlin. I noticed during my time there that I saw no houses with the German flag proudly displayed outside. When I asked my host family about it, they simply stated that they didn't celebrate national pride as Americans do, in part due to the shame they were still experiencing for their countries' atrocities in WWII. I don't know if that's the reason for everybody, but how sad to feel ashamed of your country.

[FiremanBob]

Well, enough people from other countries are sufficiently unhappy that they weren't born here that they give up everything and risk their lives to come here. What other countries are so popular among freedom-seeking refugees?

Jeez Kreutz, the first troll was ok, but don't double down on stupid.

[Kreutz]

You mean to tell us, Kreutz, that none of your relatives have done something great, worthwhile, or interesting? And if they have, you don't feel any sort of pride just in being related to them? Such things aren't piggybacking or laziness. In the case of relatives, it's a source of inspiration, or a motivator. For example, I look at what all my preceding relatives have done, the character that they were known for, and it inspires me. The same thing translates to nationality. Americans have accomplished a great many things; it's inspiring.

One of my ancestors founded Yaphank NY, which later became the HQ of the German-American Bund. Theres always that.



But no, truthfully I really never cared to learn much about our dead...because they're dead and as such really have no bearing on me.

Again, their deeds would have been their deeds, not mine, ergo taking pride in them makes no sense to me.

I think we both know it wasn't a legit question but rather your method of screwin' with people. So, I guess you hate 'Merica?

Of course I do. Anyone who isnt PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN clearly hates America.

Are you a Liberal? Because you completely ignored my point and went straight to my example, trying to dismantle it as a distraction. My point is still valid -- being lucky for being an American by birth does not mean that one should not then be patriotic. One has nothing to do with the other.

You could just admit you picked a really stupid analogy you know. A gun really really doesn't compare to the subject at hand. No, not valid at all.

Look, I asked a question that started nagging at me after reading this thread, and am now only moderately closer to understanding the answer to it, thanks to Reverenddel, SHMIV and Mindflayer.

Im just being honest, the emotion of "pride" TO ME shouldn't be tied into where you happened to be born. Just human nature I guess, I've seen many Mexicans with "Mexican Pride" (yet apparently not proud enough to go back there) bumper stickers, and that place is a shytehole....

Forgive me my curiosity.

[SilentServiceVet]

Of course I do. Anyone who isnt PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN clearly hates America.

See, you made a comment, calling this thread a " 'Merica orgy," which was clearly sarcasm. So my counter-sarcasm was to take what you said to the opposite extreme.

You could just admit you picked a really stupid analogy you know. A gun really really doesn't compare to the subject at hand. No, not valid at all.

Except it wasn't a stupid analogy. It made perfect sense -- you just didn't get it. You also think your "question" was legit too. I can only lead the horse to water. It was, after all, a gun analogy on a gun forum to explain how your argument made no sense whatsoever. If you can't make the logical leap through the "Barney-style" example I gave you, then no, I can't enlighten you or satisfy your curiosity. But hey, I tried!

Im just being honest, the emotion of "pride" TO ME shouldn't be tied into where you happened to be born. Just human nature I guess, I've seen many Mexicans with "Mexican Pride" (yet apparently not proud enough to go back there) bumper stickers, and that place is a shytehole....

Forgive me my curiosity.

It is exactly human nature. The immigrants that come here and display their former country's flag from their rear view mirror or on their bumper, may be proud of where they were born and their ancestry. I can understand that ... they want to fit into the crowd they hang out with now and really, they may feel they can't claim America as their "home" because they weren't born here. They probably don't see the irony. Like you, I think that if their country sucked so much that they chose to come here, then they should consider themselves Americans and display our flag.

And I forgive you.

[SpanishInquisition]

...But no, truthfully I really never cared to learn much about our dead...because they're dead and as such really have no bearing on me...

...and those that fail to learn from the past are...what? Yes, it's an old saw, but quite true.

There's difference between the dead and history. It's not a subtle difference either. I'm amazed that you have trouble grasping the concept.

[Kreutz]

Let me give you a different analogy, which I think is better and perhaps will show where I'm coming from.

While walking along you spot a lottery ticket on the ground and figure, "why not?", pick it up, check it out online and realize you just won 30 million.

So, after taxes (they even affect hypotheticals!) you still have enough dough to buy a mint, and I mean mint mansion.

Would you really invite your friends and family over to show them and tell them you're "proud" of the house you did jack squat to earn?

Of course not.

You'd tell them you were "lucky", "fortunate", or "blessed".

Conversely say you took the risks, made the sarifices, and earned the cash to buy that mansion. Could you then tell people as ou give them the tour of how "proud" you are to live in this wonderful mansion you can sincerely say you earned?

Of course. You did earn it after all. the sense of pride is now warranted.

That is how I feel about my citizenship, I feel very lucky indeed to have been born here, even a touch blessed.

But not proud. I can only claim "pride" if I at least improve upon what I already found/what was left me, but for simply having been born here?

Just doesn't seem right to me.

And thats my last 2 cents (what was left after taxes and the mansion incidentally).

[SHMIV]

That is how I feel about my citizenship, I feel very lucky indeed to have been born here, even a touch blessed.

But not proud. I can only claim "pride" if I at least improve upon what I already found/what was left me, but for simply having been born here?

Just doesn't seem right to me.

I understand your point. I see where your coming from, and looking at it from that angle, it makes sense.

But, in my point of view, even viewing from your angle, you HAVE contributed. When you served in the Army, you did SOMETHING useful, I would imagine. And, even if you didn't, you were prepared to. (I'm not going to credit beer drinking in Germany as a valuable commodity, though, lol)

I'm guessing that the bulk of us on this forum are generally productive people. We're doing something that benefits others; contributing to the economy, maybe contributing to a charity in some way, NOT habitually collecting government checks, etc. And, if you are doing any of these things, you are contributing to the quality of the nation, and you are making it yours. (Bonus points for raising children to be productive) Thus, I believe that a sense of pride is warranted.

Using the same same logic, those that stay on welfare and live in government subsidized housing, and are generally unproductive, probably ought not feel any American pride whatsoever; which is fine, because they typically don't.

[ratherfish]

It's OK Kreutz.....

you must have gotten "the "lucky" American uterus" BY MISTAKE!

[FiremanBob]

It's not the luck that we're proud of. It's our continuance of that uniquely American culture by our efforts to conserve the legacy of the Founders that we're proud of.

[ratherfish]

Our ancestors CHOSE it for us!

They picked up and came here for the promise this fine country offered. They pitched in and BUILT it with hard work and sacrefise.

Luck is for losers.