tursiops wrote:zombiekiller57, thanks for helping me make my case. There were a lot of Christians that helped form this nation, but they very clearly chose NOT to form it as a Christian nation, since they felt that would be too restrictive and too far down the slippery slope of next deciding just which Christian sect would prevail. James Madison brokered this approach and agreement.
Oh, and go check your knowledge of the Jefferson Bible. Yes, it was used to teach Indians, but that is not why he wrote it. Yes, most of it was just excised pieces of the King James version, not Jefferson's words, but he purposely left out all the parts that define the deification part of Christianity, like the resurrection.
tursiops, Next time you post how about you post reference to back up your opinions because you have no facts.
Oh, and go check your knowledge of the Jefferson Bible.
You just regurgitated back to me what I educated you on in my post and you want me to check my knowledge? :facepalm You know I'm correct and now you are trying to recover from sticking your foot in your mouth. And again, IT WAS NOT A BIBLE and you just confirmed that it your statement. Go research the facts instead of listening to liberals who don't know a damn thing about what they talk about. Life's to short to waste on people who don't want to grasp knowledge. Peace Out!
I have nothing to add, other than I, too, agree that this nation was founded on Christianity. My reasoning has already been presented by others. And probably presented better than I would have presented it...
"Send lawyers, guns, and money; the $#!t has hit the fan!" - Warren Zevon
tursiops wrote:Keep stretching, guys. If you really think the nation was founded as a Christian nation, then what purpose does the religion part of the First Amendment serve?
Please note I'm not questioning the religion nor the sincerity of the founding fathers. All I'm saying is that one can follow Christian morality without agreeing that Jesus rose from the dead and is part of a Holy Trinity. And that is the path our founding fathers set this nation on: follow the moral precepts, but don't feel obliged to sign the Apostle's Creed. Or any other creed.
Really--you don't know the answer to that question tursiops? The public schools are doing a worse job than I thought. The first amendment was written to keep primarily Catholics and Protestants free from persecution for their religious beliefs no matter who was in power and to keep us from having a Church of England like Britain had. There were a few Jews in the nation at that time so their religion would have been included in the founding fathers though process. But there were precious few Muslims and probably almost no eastern religions present at the start of our nation......Now I am not saying that everyone should not have freedom of religion including nearly every flavor of religious beliefs (human sacrifice is right out--sorry Aztecs). But what I am saying is that the founding fathers very definitely had a Christian mindset and the Judeo Christian God in mind when they wrote about God.
edited to add....if you think all religions view God in the same way---well you have not studied religions very much. The perception of God in each religion is very different. From the universal force of Buddism, to animism, to the pantheism of Hinduisim, to the tri-une God Christianity, to the man God of the humanists. God is very different in each religion.
"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend."
Kreutz wrote:I feel obligated to point out most Christians believe in the Trinity, so Jesus in fact does equal God, no distinction.
Many founders were Deists, that did not believe that, so, theres a discrepancy there.
I'm with Jesus and George Carlin on 2 Commandments.
KISS and all.
Thank you Kruetz for pointing that out. For a Christian Jesus=God.
I am fine with taking down the ten and putting up the two--but I imagine that would irritate some people. Actually in my school house (the kitchen and living room) we have many different verses on the walls including a poster with the 10 commandments. No one there complains.....
"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend."
Mamabear, I do not disagree with anything you said. In fact, I don't disagree with most of the stuff you guys have posted here. I think my point I'm trying to make is too subtle, and everybody wants this to be black and white, and you insist on trying to paint me black, or even say that I want this to be a Muslim nation. All I've been trying to say is there is a difference between a nation founded on Christian principles, and founding a Christian nation. Mamabear, your words: "But what I am saying is that the founding fathers very definitely had a Christian mindset and the Judeo Christian God in mind when they wrote about God." Of course they did, and I've been agreeing with that. However they chose NOT to designate this as a Christian nation, but one that is more open than that. That is my major point, which I started off on when someone (Rick?) said this is a Christian nation. It is not, even though it was founded on Christian principles. But that distinction is lost on you folks.
End the stupid thread; it serves no purpose.
And by the way, it is commonly called the Jefferson Bible....not my term. Chill.
tursiops wrote:Mamabear, I do not disagree with anything you said. In fact, I don't disagree with most of the stuff you guys have posted here. I think my point I'm trying to make is too subtle, and everybody wants this to be black and white, and you insist on trying to paint me black, or even say that I want this to be a Muslim nation. All I've been trying to say is there is a difference between a nation founded on Christian principles, and founding a Christian nation. Mamabear, your words: "But what I am saying is that the founding fathers very definitely had a Christian mindset and the Judeo Christian God in mind when they wrote about God." Of course they did, and I've been agreeing with that. However they chose NOT to designate this as a Christian nation, but one that is more open than that. That is my major point, which I started off on when someone (Rick?) said this is a Christian nation. It is not, even though it was founded on Christian principles. But that distinction is lost on you folks.
End the stupid thread; it serves no purpose.
And by the way, it is commonly called the Jefferson Bible....not my term. Chill.
Pretty fine line you are drawing...founded on the Christian God and Christian principals, but not founded on Christianity. A very fine line indeed.
"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend."
mamabearCali wrote:
Pretty fine line you are drawing...founded on the Christian God and Christian principals, but not founded on Christianity. A very fine line indeed.
No, that's not the line. Not all the founders were Christians (there were Unitarians, Deists, whatever), even though many of them followed the Christian ideals. They just wanted a country that provided the same freedoms. My line is beyond that....they may well have founded it on Christianity, but they chose NOT to designate it as a Christian nation. They could have, but they chose not to. We should respect that, and not call it a Christian nation.
mamabearCali wrote:
Pretty fine line you are drawing...founded on the Christian God and Christian principals, but not founded on Christianity. A very fine line indeed.
No, that's not the line. Not all the founders were Christians (there were Unitarians, Deists, whatever), even though many of them followed the Christian ideals. They just wanted a country that provided the same freedoms. My line is beyond that....they may well have founded it on Christianity, but they chose NOT to designate it as a Christian nation. They could have, but they chose not to. We should respect that, and not call it a Christian nation.
Perhaps they thought it was a no brainer and was inferred, and need not be actually referred to. I actually would not call it a Christian nation, but more a nation of Christians. That, of course, can change and if it every does completely I don't think it will be to the betterment of our nation.
"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend."
mamabearCali wrote:
Pretty fine line you are drawing...founded on the Christian God and Christian principals, but not founded on Christianity. A very fine line indeed.
No, that's not the line. Not all the founders were Christians (there were Unitarians, Deists, whatever), even though many of them followed the Christian ideals. They just wanted a country that provided the same freedoms. My line is beyond that....they may well have founded it on Christianity, but they chose NOT to designate it as a Christian nation. They could have, but they chose not to. We should respect that, and not call it a Christian nation.
I don;t disagree with you on this point, tursiops...perhaps I could have chosen my words differently. If you want to cede the point that our nation was founded on Christian principles, then I'm good with that. I don't have to call us a "Christian Nation" (as clearly in this day and age, we certainly are NOT anyway).
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