Does the "soak the rich" tax scheme work?

[rlbellco72]

IMHO the "soak the rich" gambit is just a ruse to get the non producers excited to go out and vote for whatever $hithead is advicating it at the time.Flat tax for all including the non producers would even it all out

Consumption tax and do away with the IRS and the stinking tax code...

Just think of the money that would save the country! Getting rid of the IRS and the tax code is a good Idea...

And us too for that matter!!!!

[zephyp]

@Andy - did you know that the top 1% income bracket pays ~46% of all federal income tax? Did you know that the bottom 40% pay 0...yes zero and that group as a whole actually nets a profit in refunds over and above what they pay...these stats arent from some right wing talking points site either...based on my research of 2008 data posted by the IRS...irrefutable facts...

zephyp,

Nope, didn't know that. I'd like to see the numbers you came up with. Not with the intent to dispute you, but just to learn more. If your figures are correct (and I tend to believe the old saying, there are 3 types of lies, white lies, damn lies and statistics) then the tax situation REALLY needs some adjustment.
Andy

No problem...heres the link I used...

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats ... 14,00.html --- Table 2 -- 2008

I did my calcs as follows...total tax - refunds paid = tax revenue for each group...I downloaded the spreadsheet, took the applicable columns and put them in my own sheet to make it easier...then you can get your percentage (top 1%, etc) from the total returns column.

Dont believe me...you do the research and ask yourself why would the IRS post bogus data like that...mmmm...they are the authoritative source and the calculations are easy enough to do if you can use excel...

As a matter of fact I urge everyone to do the same thing...lets compare figures...I'm sure we'll all be +- 2-3%....

THEN WE CAN PUT THE SILLY BULLSHIT ABOUT THE RICH DONT PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE TO BED...

OBAMA IS A LIAR.....

Andy, not directed at you but all those who merely parrot the chief liar's remarks....

[nothalfbad]

Stop Coddling the Super-Rich, by Warren Buffett
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/opini ... _LO_MST_FB

From the article:
"Since 1992, the I.R.S. has compiled data from the returns of the 400 Americans reporting the largest income. In 1992, the top 400 had aggregate taxable income of $16.9 billion and paid federal taxes of 29.2 percent on that sum. In 2008, the aggregate income of the highest 400 had soared to $90.9 billion — a staggering $227.4 million on average — but the rate paid had fallen to 21.5 percent.

The taxes I refer to here include only federal income tax, but you can be sure that any payroll tax for the 400 was inconsequential compared to income. In fact, 88 of the 400 in 2008 reported no wages at all, though every one of them reported capital gains. Some of my brethren may shun work but they all like to invest. (I can relate to that.)"

According to Buffett taxes need to be raised on the rich. The article is worth reading, he makes good points.

Another quote:
" I have worked with investors for 60 years and I have yet to see anyone — not even when capital gains rates were 39.9 percent in 1976-77 — shy away from a sensible investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain. People invest to make money, and potential taxes have never scared them off. And to those who argue that higher rates hurt job creation, I would note that a net of nearly 40 million jobs were added between 1980 and 2000. You know what’s happened since then: lower tax rates and far lower job creation."

[gunderwood]

Stop Coddling the Super-Rich, by Warren Buffett
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/opini ... _LO_MST_FB

From the article:
"Since 1992, the I.R.S. has compiled data from the returns of the 400 Americans reporting the largest income. In 1992, the top 400 had aggregate taxable income of $16.9 billion and paid federal taxes of 29.2 percent on that sum. In 2008, the aggregate income of the highest 400 had soared to $90.9 billion — a staggering $227.4 million on average — but the rate paid had fallen to 21.5 percent.

The taxes I refer to here include only federal income tax, but you can be sure that any payroll tax for the 400 was inconsequential compared to income. In fact, 88 of the 400 in 2008 reported no wages at all, though every one of them reported capital gains. Some of my brethren may shun work but they all like to invest. (I can relate to that.)"

According to Buffett taxes need to be raised on the rich. The article is worth reading, he makes good points.

Another quote:
" I have worked with investors for 60 years and I have yet to see anyone — not even when capital gains rates were 39.9 percent in 1976-77 — shy away from a sensible investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain. People invest to make money, and potential taxes have never scared them off. And to those who argue that higher rates hurt job creation, I would note that a net of nearly 40 million jobs were added between 1980 and 2000. You know what’s happened since then: lower tax rates and far lower job creation."

The problem is the special loopholes that they lobbied our representatives for. The overall tax rate needs lowered and many taxes done away with (e.g. property tax in VA), but it should be replaced with a simple tax. No loopholes and preferably flat.

[zephyp]

Warren Buffett can bite me.

[Kreutz]

A fantastic 5 minute video on the subject....couldn't resist!

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-a ... share_copy

[zephyp]

The daily show, cast, and anyone who watches can bite me.

[Kreutz]

The daily show, cast, and anyone who watches can bite me.

Good comeback.

[Riposite]

What is that saying about democracy.."It only works until a majority realizes they can vote themselves largesse from the public coffers" or something to that effect.

I will be honest, in my humble opinion we have two issues; one there is a class of super rich who do take advantage of the system , and two yes government spending is out of control.


The first one shouldn't be addressed by an income tax adjustment. What we actually need is to graduate the capitol gains tax upwards, as this is where that super majority who owns most of the wealth in the US actually generates their money. And we need to do it less as part of some grand wealth redistribution scheme and rather more as a way to change their behavior than generate revenue. Right now, these corporate sharks ( Carl Ichan for example), buy a company's stock, they then force the company to take short term decisions -like outsourcing, cutting employee benefits or jobs, to increase the value of the company's stock for a sale, and they don't do it in ways that make the company stronger, often times it is the way to "increase share holder " value by making it worth more dead than alive; so they can part up the company and sell it off; which of course has negative impacts on we the working american.

So by raising the capitol gains tax progressively up, we'd be influencing their behavior, rather than trying to make money over slash and burn sales, we'd try to encourage rather that they support and grow companies, to make their income via dividends, which only successful stable companies tend to give out. But even again this wouldn't be a tax to get the government more money per se, but rather an attempt to stop the whole sale picking of the American economy by vultures who don't care if they send all our jobs to China.

As for government spending-look at all the social spending that arose out of Johnson' war on poverty, yet we have more poor today than before. we need to identify some crucial services Government needs to provide and that is it. And the majority of them- government shouldn't even provide the services but contract it out, and rather than have people who provide the service, the much reduced federal work force would be evaluating private sector companies providing the service not actually providing the service. education funding being mismanaged-transportation projects not being done on time? Rather than having Federal employees who can't be let go; it be private companies who the government could fire if there was no tangible progress and someone else brought in and so on. We are a free market society -we need to use that to our advantage.
Somethings government needs to handle directly (defense, justice ) etc but lets get it out of everything else. Yes that means a reduction in the federal workforce, but a large public sector workforce is not a good thing-of course if we do it right a lot would end up being picked up by the private sector entities now competing for government work, but yeah probably be a loss of benefits and guaranteed step raising, and hey I hate to say it but maybe ti's time that portion of the population felt what those of us in the private sector feel. I am not saying the majority of them don't work hard or aren't dedicated to their jobs, it's just inherently a public sector job is a drain on the people who work in the private sector, and we need especially in these times to have as little of that as possible.


Of course this is all moot until we Americans have a real discussion about what we think government should and can do, and we avoid it, as the politicians love selling government as the solution to everything to keep getting voted in.

[zephyp]

@Riposite - "influence their behavior" ?????? This is America dude...home of the free. We should be able to pursue our dreams unfettered. Those who are super rich have obviously invested alot to get there. Why try to influence their behavior. I dont want the stinking government influencing my behavior. Do you?

Hitting the super rich is not an option. Ok, I'll concede that we should pay some taxes but take alook at the facts. The "super rich" (top 1%) already pay 46% of all federal taxes. The bottom 40% pay nothing. And most get refunds. I say influence their behavior...the ones who dont pay taxes and leech off the system. Maybe that includes you?

[Riposite]

@ zephyp -sorry buddy, I've never gotten earned income credit or anything like that-solidly in the i get taxed and get no government benefits class; in fact I belong to that most despised class currently -white male who works for a living


but to stop and think that the super rich have not to a certain extent gamed the system by buying politicians and the like is drinking too much kool aid from the other side.
Now frankly i believe no one should ever get more than they pay into taxes back..period.
But we now live in a system where a lot of our super rich aren't even producers anymore -they're vultures...Corporate raiders who don;t care if a company is profitable and long term vialbe, but swoop in and force changes like outsourcing and lay offs to create a short term gain so they can sell at a quick profit (and mostly they are siphoning money from the banks who don't care because it is our money they lose, so in the end its us they are robbing) not caring if the longer term result is a decrease overall in American Exceptionalism. Hell I worked for years in the maching industry where the industry heads patted themselves on the back for outsourcing the jobs to China to hit their incentive goals for big bonus pay outs and yet two years later the chinese had just up and copied the designs and had their own companies running, because what do they care about intellectual property rights. The ironic thing is, these vultures couldn't exsist and succeed in most other nations (fears of nationalizations,government extortion or direct competition etc), yet they are slowly contributing to the death of the place where they live. They should have a vested interest in keeping America great, but they don't, they are all too short sighted. They want bail outs and protections and the US to fight internationally for their rights, then yeah , just liek everybody else they owe something back to the system.

Now i am by no means saying how the government spends the taxes its collect now is right or just. It isn't , it doesn't work, and it's just organized crime made legal. But at the same token unless you want to end up in a version of the Russian Oligarchy they have going on now; then yeah we do need some government action. Because in any capitolist society money =power, and their is a criticial mass point of it where you no longer need to produce, you just game the system.

When I talk super rich , i don't mean people who own business or even the companies like Boeing that still work and produce and create here, I mean the Carl Ichans, that guy in Texas, that freaking equity fund that ruined Chrysler after Iaccoca saved it. These people aren't creating anything, they are the equivalent of poker players who can always outbid your stake so you lose even with a better hand, and they just like the Johnson/ Keyensian acolytes on the left who are ruining this country.


Nobody should get a free ride, but at the same token those with the most to lose, should put up and shut up rather than expect the public to keep bailing them out.

[zephyp]

@Riposte...touche but I would say some of us are the same way...how hard do we search for ways to pay less taxes through the year...and, if we play the stock market then most of us derive some benefit from the vomit of these "vultures." And, anyone with a 401k, TSP, etc "plays" (benefits to some degree) the market. And yes, I realize the market kinda sucks right now but you can still win if you play it safe. Alot of us are vultures to some degree. Just depends on how big we are...baby vultures or grandpa buzzards...

[Riposite]

@ zephyp -oh most people I agree try to minimize taxes, especially among the middle classes, they are the least able to afford it, pay a higher percentage of their "real" spending power and are not rich enough to qualify for all the real loop holes or pay teams of accountants and lawyers to find them, set up safe havens, shells etc


Of course I do wonder if people would try to avoid taxes less, if they felt they had a real say in how they were spent and had faith it wasn't just a big waste, that takes money just to grow to take money. I mean after all we've been fighting the war on poverty since Johnson and the only result of all these government programs is poverty is worse.

Logically a flat tax is probably the most fair, without many if any exemptions and defintely no earned income credits etc.



As for when i said the government influences behavior, that is not the same as controlling, after all people would still be free to engage in short sighted investment/sale behavior but the profit margin would be lower. It's basically saying okay we all know this behavior (like outsourcing jobs) long term negatively effects the nation as a whole, so we are going to offset that with a tax, but hey if instead you choose to develop and invest here, since that behavior strengthens us as a whole, the whole has a a vested interest in rewarding and enocuraging that behavior.



Of course nowhere in this is a claim on how to spend any revenue collected that way lol

I personally don't think a lot of government programs are efficient

(for example one of the tenets of the green science spending they are doing now is "Diverse Science is better science" meaning special classes and groups need to get favortism in funding even if the non special class groups have more proof, better science more creditable theories etc -and if they can't see what is wrong with that or why China is doing better on that science front...)

Im not advocating we should give the governemnt more money so it can do more lol

in fact in my ideal world, most people would not pay any additional penalty because they would instead take long term pro US policies, investing and growing our industrial strength here.

.

[zephyp]

@Riposite...I'm with ya...good stuff there especially a flat tax. Make it x% across the board and no filing requirement. Do away with the IRS. And I agree totally...very few useful government programs. We gots ta get back to the Constitution...read it and simply do what it says...we are forced to obey thousands of dumb laws passed by congress. The least we can expect is for them to at least follow a few simple statements in the Constitution...

[Kreutz]

@Riposite...I'm with ya...good stuff there especially a flat tax. Make it x% across the board and no filing requirement. Do away with the IRS.

I'm down with a straight flat tax (it is very fair), but without the IRS, who would enforce it? Anyone could just put their income down at $20,000 and pay 15% of that, who would check it?

[zephyp]

@Riposite...I'm with ya...good stuff there especially a flat tax. Make it x% across the board and no filing requirement. Do away with the IRS.

I'm down with a straight flat tax (it is very fair), but without the IRS, who would enforce it? Anyone could just put their income down at $20,000 and pay 15% of that, who would check it?

First of all 15% is way too much...10% maybe. Second if you have a job you realize that tax is held from your pay check, Simply take x% from every pay check and put it in the kitty. No return needed no IRS needed. Simple.

[Riposite]

I'm not sure we could eliminate the IRS 100% but defintely downsize it, and with a flat tax, no more forcing people to file and tons of paper work eliminated

[SHMIV]

Eliminate federal income tax (and eliminate IRS) and replace the whole system with a federal sales tax.

[Kreutz]

Eliminate federal income tax (and eliminate IRS) and replace the whole system with a federal sales tax.

Again, without an IRS, what can enforce compliance?

Face it guys; they suck, but they're a necessary evil. They can, like most (if not all) government agencies be modernized and downsized though, but I can't see a functioning tax system without an overseeing authority.

Methinks some of ya'all ascribe way too much honesty to the average citizen! Tax cheats go back to Sumeria, its an old sport.

[SHMIV]

I suppose that with a federal sales tax, the enforcing entity may slightly resemble the IRS, and may even retain the name. However, we should end up with a much smaller and much less threatening beast... In theory, anyway...

One of these days, I think that I will take up residence in Theory... I hear that EVERYTHING works there.......