Gun Un-Friendly Apartment Complexes and Legal Issues

[VAgun22222]

I just discovered your forum as a new resident of Virginia. I had a question that has been prime on my mind lately. Does anyone know how the law applies to apartment complexes that prohibit the possession of firearms? The law speaks about property where the owner does not give consent, but what if that property is your home or abode or "cartilage thereof" ? This would be for the carry of a handgun concealed in an apartment or on the way to one's car or around the complex.

And if it is not illegal to possess firearms on said land, although obviously grounds for getting kicked out of the property if it were discovered, does anyone know if the application of a ccw will get back in any way to the landlord of the property? (I've found that it says that new residents must have their addresses verified for the previous 5 years). It's really bothersome, because every apartment rental company I've dealt with for the past 4 years has this same policy regardless of the state they're in. Anyway, Thank you.

[Pumbaa]

I don't have any guns! They were lost in an unfortunate boating/ fishing accident on a lake..

I took all my guns out for a little fishing trip and they fell overboard...

[allingeneral]

Welcome aboard!

Apartment complexes are private property and therefore, firearms may be forbidden by the owner(s) of said property.

When you get a Concealed Handgun Permit (CHP), the application is part of the public record, so any landlord who wishes to go look up all (or one) of his or her tenants to see if they have a CHP is free to do so.

I think that if I were in the market for an apartment, I would have to ask, as part of the application process, whether they allow privately owned firearms on their property or not.

[VAgun22222]

Thanks. That sure is a bummer though. The law does seem confusing in regard to carrying in one's home. I don't think that there's any special distinction between one's home/abode that would be their own property and one's home/abode that would be someone else's property. Unless legally one would be home-less in regard to carrying.

Otherwise? I guess open carry would be legal? It would be too risky to really ever do, but I'm guessing there would be no legal charges if anything ever went wrong, except getting kicked out.

Thank you for your answers. They've been very helpful.

[Reverenddel]

Another thing? Read carefully thru the contract.

You should do this anyway, but if you read, you'll find the sections about "firearms". You can also find information in the Commonwealth of Va Tenant/Landlord act , it's Section 55 in the codes.

As to the curtillage, this area is determined as the difference between "public/private", even if you share an area with other tenants, that curtillage is considered YOUR property as well, such as hallways, and parking for your apartment.

[VAgun22222]

Yeah. It was a situation where I needed a place quick and I found a good one (except for this part of the community rules).

That seems interesting what you say though. So, home/abode would trump private property at least in terms of the penal code? It wouldn't change the lease agreement, but there would be no legal charges?

Really, I'm only concerned if I can be legally prosecuted if for whatever reason some lunatic breaks into my apartment or tries to jump me in the parking lot. I know that I can be evicted, but I don't want to have to face criminal charges too (granted that the case of self-defense were justified).

[allingeneral]

Really, I'm only concerned if I can be legally prosecuted if for whatever reason some lunatic breaks into my apartment or tries to jump me in the parking lot. I know that I can be evicted, but I don't want to have to face criminal charges too (granted that the case of self-defense were justified).

As I understand it (not a lawyer) I guess the apartment complex could press charges for misdemeanor trespassing and evict you for breach of contract.

[VAgun22222]

I had read something to that extent in another forum (trespassing). I do admit to not being a lawyer (some knowledge of legislation and treaty law though). I'm not sure if anyone here has a legal background specifically.

Just going off of the top of my head, in order for it to be trespassing, would I have to have been evicted already? I don't think that contracts have instantaneous eviction clauses. I would think that they describe grounds for evictions, but not instant effects of an eviction. For example, something non-gun related is also grounds for eviction, but I've never heard of somebody getting misdemeanor trespassing for getting drunk and scissor kicking a wall [that would be fun to watch ]. If I am not in violation until I use my gun in self defense, that they can prove I possessed a gun on the property from that moment on, and have a home/abode/curtilage, but then I instantly am in violation, I would think that they would serve a standard eviction notice, then the more prudent thing to do would be to run off to a self-storage unit with my gun(s) before I no longer lived there.

Complicated and more posts than I expected, but I'd assume at least a few people on this forum live in apartment complexes, so it would be very relevant to them too.

[Pumbaa]

Would this be any different than say someone having someone NOT on their lease living in the home? How about not paying rent? How about trashing the house?

These are some of the things I had to put up with as a landlord. It is a CIVIL matter. I evicted the people because of the above violations of the lease. You could just as easily add no pets, no smoking, no guns....

After eviction there is a process that must be followed depending on state law. I had 4 rentals in New York and it took over 3 months to get most of the folks out! And that is after the 30 day warning, the 14 days warning, having the Sheriff deliver another eviction notice.

At *NO* time was there ever talk of the tenant trespassing after the eviction notice time expired.

I would go to the local Sheriff about them not being out by the deadline, and they were "Oh Well" you have to go to court and get the 14 day notice.

There is ZERO difference between having a gun in the rental and having a pet.

I am not a lawyer, but I have dealt with 4 evictions for various reasons. So this is from the other side of the fence.

[Yarddawg]

I'm not sure if anyone here has a legal background specifically.

There is a member here who goes by the moniker of "user" that is an attorney. You could try sending him a PM.

[VAgun22222]

It says that I can't send an e-mail to him (user)

It is interesting though. I could have a dozen dogs or cats peeing all over the place and I'd only need a fee or something that I'd give them upfront before I moved in. They're pet policy was really open IIRC, but no guns.

[Palladin]

It says that I can't send an e-mail to him (user)

Then maybe go straight to his site... http://www.virginialegaldefense.com/

[zephyp]

If he doesnt have e-mail enabled just send him a PM...

[user]

First thing, you can send me email, at least I've got that box checked. What I've got disabled is PM's - since I don't check here often enough, I don't want someone to think they've sent me something I won't see for a week. I'd be interested to know, though whether someone's attempted to send me a true email via this board and it didn't work - I think Rick would want to know if that's happening.

Secondly, and as a practical matter, my suggestion is not to worry about the landlord. There are different kinds of leases, and it's theoretically possible to be criminally liable for trespassing for violation of the lease, having been told by the management to leave, and refusing to do so, on some kinds of leases and not others. I have a special interest in real estate law, so I happen to know about that stuff, but most lawyers don't understand it, and most cops don't, and in the real world, it ain't gonna happen. Sort of like getting arrested for the crime of fornication - theoretically possible, but no one's been prosecuted since the Eighteenth Century.

The reason the landlord might have a "no guns" rule is to cover his own arse with respect to civil liability for a tenant who shoots in his own apartment, but the bullet goes through the wall (it could happen) and kill the baby next door. If that happens, the landlord wants to be able to say, "It wasn't my fault, I TOLD him not to have guns in there!" There is no provision of law in Virginia that I know of that affirmatively requires a landlord to permit firearms. However, if the property is subject to the Virginia Residential Landlord Tenant Act, then the following statute applies (note the word, "only" in the first paragraph):

§ 55-248.17. Rules and regulations.

A. A landlord, from time to time, may adopt rules or regulations, however described, concerning the tenants' use and occupancy of the premises. Any such rule or regulation is enforceable against the tenant only if:

1. Its purpose is to promote the convenience, safety or welfare of the tenants in the premises, preserve the landlord's property from abusive use or make a fair distribution of services and facilities held out for the tenants generally;

2. ...

My suggestion is that you keep the gun out of sight of other tenants who might freak out and complain, and follow the "don't ask, don't tell" rule.

[VAgun22222]

Many thanks for coming in to answer my question.

My only concern really was over criminal charges. I suppose that I could carry concealed at home and from home to my car and around the complex. I don't have a CCW and probably won't be getting one in the short-term at least for reasons that were outlined earlier. Actually I've had to do something similar in other buildings in other states I've lived.

[chammer]

It's funny I should come across this thread just before reading my book while trying to sleep. I just read this and wanted to post:

Landlord Rental Agreements
A landlord cannot prohibit or restrict your tenancy, in any public housing for lawful possession of any firearms. Under §55-248.9, any such provision in a lease is unenforceable, and if a landlord brings suit against a tenant on such grounds the tenant may recover actual damages and attorneys fees from the landlord.

This is from The Virginia Gun Owners Guide by the way. I also looked up the law online as well, and found it here:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... d+55-248.9

Item 6 is the one you want:

§ 55-248.9. Prohibited provisions in rental agreements.
....
6. Agrees as a condition of tenancy in public housing to a prohibition or restriction of any lawful possession of a firearm within individual dwelling units unless required by federal law or regulation;

The only thing I question, however, is the part where it states "within individual dwelling units". So it does sound like it could still be quite tricky if you wanted to go for a walk around the block or whatever. I'd do as others suggested and just not advertise if you're carrying outside of your building, but inside your building you're fine.

[zephyp]

Public housing is the operative word in that code section....means housing subsidized by the gubment...otherwise its private property and the management/owner can make whatever silly rules they want...

[Pumbaa]

And you can ignore any silly rules they make too.. Worst thing is you get booted out... NO different from having a dog, cat, extra people, extra cars, etc....

Personally, I would not want to give my money to a hoplophobe then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplophobia

[zephyp]

Being a responsible gun owner dont exactly mean we can ignore silly rules...VA code says owner/manager of private property can ban guns...thats the law...ignoring the silly rule is the same as ignoring the law and then we become law breakers...not something I care to be....

[chammer]

Public housing is the operative word in that code section....means housing subsidized by the gubment...otherwise its private property and the management/owner can make whatever silly rules they want...

Ahh ok. That makes sense. I swear they make this as confusing as possible on purpose just to catch people attempting to do the right thing.