Interpretation of "Carrying in Church" law

[Jim]

Based on User's comments, who is a registered attorney, I'd say we have grounds to request it be scrapped.
However, SRWG does have a point. If we draw too much attention to this, we could make this worse than it already is.
What say the group?

[VBshooter]

Leave it as is, As mentioned ,personal self defense is a sufficent and legal reason to CC. Other gun issues need much more attention this year and IMHO our efforts would be better directed at them.. A full blown Castle Doctrine with immunity from punitive lawsuits comes to mind. We will need to concentrate our efforts in that direction to hopefully stem off a repeat of the Death Committee that occured last session. Not saying the church thing is not worthy but it pales compared to other laws we need to get passed

[Taggure]

Leave it as is, As mentioned ,personal self defense is a sufficent and legal reason to CC. Other gun issues need much more attention this year and IMHO our efforts would be better directed at them.. A full blown Castle Doctrine with immunity from punitive lawsuits comes to mind. We will need to concentrate our efforts in that direction to hopefully stem off a repeat of the Death Committee that occured last session. Not saying the church thing is not worthy but it pales compared to other laws we need to get passed

I second this notion

If Virginia is going to lead the way on the 2A then they should prove it and pass a full blown Castle Doctrine with immunity from punitive lawsuits. I know that there are a lot of well versed folks here on the forum and that we have connections within the VCDL here that a serious push in the State Legislation could happen again. We just need to shut down the Kangaroo panel in the State Senate that shut us down last year.

Vern

[ProShooter]

if it ain't broke....

[Dreamerx4]

My familys safety is good and sufficient reason, as is the fact that churches have been targeted several times in recent history proving to be in most instances "soft" targets.

I carry concealed when I carry, no reason for anyone to ever find out unless I am in a situation where I or my family are in immediate danger of losing our lives. At that point, I will survive, and live to face the consequences, good or bad.

[Jim]

Well said by all. I thank each of you for your responses. I feel a lot better now, knowing where the group stands on this issue.

[ProShooter]

NRA Certified Instructor
NRA RTBAV Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter
FFL Dealer
NRA Life Member
VCDL Member, wish they had a Life category as well!

hhhhmmm......that sig line looks very familar......lol

[Dreamerx4]

NRA Certified Instructor
NRA RTBAV Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter
FFL Dealer
NRA Life Member
VCDL Member, wish they had a Life category as well!

hhhhmmm......that sig line looks very familar......lol

Sorry, I liked how you had it laid out there and was not trying to step on toes. Changed it up a bit so it does not confuse anyone.

[ProShooter]

NRA Certified Instructor
NRA RTBAV Instructor
NRA Membership Recruiter
FFL Dealer
NRA Life Member
VCDL Member, wish they had a Life category as well!

hhhhmmm......that sig line looks very familar......lol

Sorry, I liked how you had it laid out there and was not trying to step on toes. Changed it up a bit so it does not confuse anyone.

No problem! I like how its laid out too, haha! Confused me when I was paging up though...I saw the sig line and said to myself "what the hell? I'm not an FFL" LMAO

[jrswanson1]

Castle Doctrine and dropping the one handgun a month should be at the top. It would be nice to drop the permit requirement for concealed carry, too.

Jim

[kps]

last church I attended, the pastor carried even while giving his sermon. we had a falling out over political views. not religious. so I walked away & havent found a church since.

an interesting question, if person carrying is an ordained minister, or preacher, & he has a CCW, & he attends his own to preach or visint in another church is he breaking the law?

Randy

[gunderwood]

an interesting question, if person carrying is an ordained minister, or preacher, & he has a CCW, & he attends his own to preach or visint in another church is he breaking the law?

For all the reasons user pointed out, no. However, just because you aren't breaking the law doesn't mean some LEO and/or prosecutor won't try to make an example of you.

If we are going to push to change the law, I suggest we push to get it deleted entirely. However, I think there are far more important laws to get off the books than this one. Technically, it is a mute point legally and socially. If you are a member in good standing with a church and they find out you CC and don't like it, the odds are they will just ask you not to do it again. The likelihood of a church pressing charges against one of their own is very low...particularly in VA.

Furthermore, if you end up needing it for SD, I don't see how the state could claim you didn't have good and sufficient cause.

[KABAR2]

Nothing to worry about otherwise unless your church uses detectors or strip searches...

Thankfully the TSA has not started security at churches!

I am wondering if the idea of weapons not allowed in a house of worship goes back to
Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek? or to the 10 Commandments "Thou shall
not kill" Which in the correct translation is "Thou shall not murder" big difference there!
Un-informed law makers may wish to keep the Christian flocks as sheep but we are far
from it.

[dorminWS]

Based on User's comments, who is a registered attorney, I'd say we have grounds to request it be scrapped.
However, SRWG does have a point. If we draw too much attention to this, we could make this worse than it already is.
What say the group?

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

I don't mean to be punctilious, but:

"registered" is what you do with dogs and horses to establish their bona fides,
"Licensed" is how they do the same with attorneys.
Entirely appropriate that you should confuse lawyers and dawgs, some would say.........

[DennisM]

On April 8, 2001 the VA attorney general provided an official advisory opinion on the issue:

Issues Presented
You ask whether it is permissible for a citizen to carry his firearm into a place of worship for personal safety purposes under § 18.2-293, which requires a "good and sufficient reason" for carrying a firearm into "a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place." You further inquire whether a church may ban weapons on its property. The construction of this statute has been the source of multiple inquiries to this office.

Response
It is my opinion that carrying a weapon for personal protection constitutes a good and sufficient reason under the statute to carry a weapon into a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held there. It is further my opinion that places of worship can restrict or ban firearms from their premises.

The VCDL had a link to this which is currently not working
http://www2.vcdl.org/cgi-bin/wspd_cgi.s ... 23&FILTER=

For church crime history, see the link at
http://www.carlchinn.com/Home_Page.html

[allingeneral]

Thanks for resurrecting this thread - here's a copy of the official PDF's - one signed by the Attorney General's Counsel in 2010 and the other signed by the Attorney General himself this year with his opinion.

[Preacher]

Greetings to all, I'm new to this forum. As you can probably tell from my username I'm an ordained minister in Virginia. I also happen to be CCW permit holder and carry daily. For those of you wondering the answer is "Yes" I carry every day, even on Sundays during services. I have done so even before the recent clarification of the law. Many ask why anyone would consider doing such a thing. Allow me to explain. I'll go ahead and apologize for the long post now. I am the shepherd of my little flock. I feed them both spiritually and with the occaisional potluck dinner, but a shepherd is much more than a glorified preacher/teacher/counselor, he or she is also the protector of the flock. David, when talking to King Saul about Goliath, said that he had rescued his sheep from both the lion and the bear. 1 Sam 17:34-35 But David said to Saul, “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it." That is the picture of a real shepherd. When he rescued the sheep he struck the aggressor. When the aggressor turned on him he used lethal force, but only because he had to, it was not his first choice. My church is full of kind, peaceful people who sit with their backs to the door, as it is in most churches, and there are many groups who are anti-Christian. I am the only one who sees the door, and I am the protector of the flock, therefore I take such measures as I deem necessary to protect them. They do not know that I carry, and truly I pray to God that they will never have to find out. - Preacher

[gunderwood]

Greetings to all, I'm new to this forum. As you can probably tell from my username I'm an ordained minister in Virginia. I also happen to be CCW permit holder and carry daily. For those of you wondering the answer is "Yes" I carry every day, even on Sundays during services. I have done so even before the recent clarification of the law. Many ask why anyone would consider doing such a thing. Allow me to explain. I'll go ahead and apologize for the long post now. I am the shepherd of my little flock. I feed them both spiritually and with the occaisional potluck dinner, but a shepherd is much more than a glorified preacher/teacher/counselor, he or she is also the protector of the flock. David, when talking to King Saul about Goliath, said that he had rescued his sheep from both the lion and the bear. 1 Sam 17:34-35 But David said to Saul, “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it." That is the picture of a real shepherd. When he rescued the sheep he struck the aggressor. When the aggressor turned on him he used lethal force, but only because he had to, it was not his first choice. My church is full of kind, peaceful people who sit with their backs to the door, as it is in most churches, and there are many groups who are anti-Christian. I am the only one who sees the door, and I am the protector of the flock, therefore I take such measures as I deem necessary to protect them. They do not know that I carry, and truly I pray to God that they will never have to find out. - Preacher

Carry on.

[Hilemark]

I do not know what the original intent of this law was when it was enacted, but it can be misinterpreted by many. The ones that concern me are those in the Law Enforcement community, they are the ones that have the authority to arrest and therefore create havoc in someone’s life needlessly. The Law Enforcement Officer more than likely has just been told that no one can carry any weapon into a place of worship. They may never have actually read the law and then wondered what the phrase “without good and sufficient reason” means practically. I would think that most Law Enforcement Officers do not think about where they can legally carry since they pretty much can carry ANYWHERE legally.

If you look at the letter by the Assistant Attorney General you will notice that he gave the legal president for what “good and sufficient reason” is. This ruling from the Assistant Attorney General then the bases for the ruling from the Attorney General, the ruling from the Attorney General just makes it official. As clearly stated in the letter from the Assistant Attorney General, self defense is a “good and sufficient reason.” So the way that I look at this law is that it allows the state to prosecute those with people that bring a weapon into a place of worship for ill intent. While at the same time it allows those of us with a conceal carry permits to do so with out breaking the law. While at the same time preserving the right of the place of worship to still not allow anyone to conceal carry by placing a sign saying so at the main entrances, just like a place of business can do. This ruling now allows those with permits to conceal carry into any place of worship that they may want to go to with out anyone’s permission, not just the place of worship that they regularly go to.

Please take the time and read the ruling and the foot notes from the Assistant Attorney General. It will give you a better understanding to base your opinions on as far as what “good and sufficient reason” now means.

[Vahunter]

Carrying in church during a service ? Guess I broke the law when I walked both daughters down the aisle. I carry in the church my wife works at when I stop by there. The preacher feels the need to ask what I'm carrying, so I whip it out ( my gun) and let him fondle it.