RRA Tactical Operator2

[Radiac]

I've decided I want to toss my hat into the AR-15 arena. My budget is limited so I'm looking for somthing that won't completely break the bank. I've been looking at the Tactical Operator2 from Rock River Arms that they're running a special on. I am very much tempted. The least expenxive I've seen them is $960.00. Anyone own one of these that can give me feedback on? Or have suggestions on others under $1K?

[OakRidgeStars]

A buddy of mine bought one of these recently. I can't find a thing wrong with it.

http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/st1 ... p-387.html

[VBshooter]

http://www.stagarms.com/index.php?cPath=13_22 I have one of their carbines and it is a sweetheart,,, No issues and great customer service...

[gunderwood]

There are a lot of good manufacturers. It really depends on what you want, how you want to use it and how much you want to spend. For example, I run a Danial Defense AR15. They don't come cheap, but they do full milspec such as magnetic particle inspection of both the bolt and barrel after a high pressure test. That adds a lot to the cost, but it also helps insure QC. For a range toy it probably doesn't matter, but it is up to you.

Do you have an idea what you intend to do with it? Is it a range toy or are you planning HD or will you actively use it in possible life/death situations (LE, SHTF, etc.)? Do you plan to suppress it? 16" or 14.5" barrel? Do you want a rail or not? CQB or more of a DMR setup? Irons, red dot, scope? Etc. I've posted this before, but it helps you understand what differentiates the manufacturers. The spreadsheet is old and just because someone doesn't do something doesn't make their product bad. http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... utput=html

A lot of it boils down to preference. RRA is a good setup though in that price range. Like most manufacturers in this price range they do cut a few corners off full milspec, but the quality of what they do is on par with the more expensive manufacturers. A while back DEA bough RRAs so you know they are at least decent. Two other good manufacturers were also recommended. At the price range you speced, most of them are fine. Choose based on features you want.

Edit: For 16" barreled guns, my preference is for the mid-length gas system like the Elite Op. 2. Although I'm not sure about the rail setup on it.

[Radiac]

The gun will be a range toy. I've been looking at flat tops, 16' barrel with rails so I can mount vertical grip and other accessories if desired. The Elite Op. 2 has a half quad. I have also been looking at the Stags alot too. The Tac. Op. 2 is representative of the type of setup I'm looking for.

Thanks for the spreadsheet.

[gunderwood]

The gun will be a range toy. I've been looking at flat tops, 16' barrel with rails so I can mount vertical grip and other accessories if desired. The Elite Op. 2 has a half quad. I have also been looking at the Stags alot too. The Tac. Op. 2 is representative of the type of setup I'm looking for.

In that case, choose what you want in that price range and it will serve you well. On a 16" gun, I really prefer the mid-length gas system, you should consider it. Also, something to consider is if you want a fixed front sight or not. For a range toy either is more than fine, but the fixed F sight is superior on a hard use gun IMHO. Two other companies you might consider although they push the price a bit are Bravo Company and Danial Defense. I picked up my DDM4V3 for not much more than that RRA you listed. Here is a similar price:

http://www.gunforall.com/shopcart/mcart ... dID=169285

The DDs and BCMs will have less features per $, but generally higher QC and testing. The trigger on a milspec like the DD is far inferior to the RRA, but an after market one like a Wilson Combat or Timney is much better. Think about how you want to build it out. I.e. if you plan to replace the trigger soon after purchase, does the middle grade RRA trigger matter?

[Radiac]

Gunderwood,

Thank you for all of your input. You have given me much to think about. I can see that there is more to be learned. I have visited numerous manufacturers sites and visited many forums where there are many USED AR's for sale (at what seems like NIB prices) that I'm just about cross eyed. I'm sure I'll find what I'm looking for with a little research and patience.

Thanks for the help.

AB

[gunderwood]

Prices on ARs went way up when Obama was elected due to a temporary shortage. A lot of people who don't usually buy guns or had been putting off an AR purchase bought one. It is easy to say now that $1500-$2000 ARs were ridiculous, but it could also have turned out to be the new norm for all we knew then. Some manufacturers expanded, some didn't and some went overboard on expansion. Only time will tell who made the best decision. The prices of ARs have been coming down once the surge demand went away. This impacts the used prices significantly; they take longer to fall as a used seller can hold onto his longer than a manufacturer with a surplus can. Thus, for a while now you have seen used ARs listed for NIB/sale prices and that will continue until supply and demand are better balanced, which may mean a few manufacturers will go out of business.

Again, looking back it is easy to understand what a good buy was and a poor one. However, we have more knowledge now than we did then. I already had several ARs so I didn't see the need to pay high prices. Even if you bought an AR or other high demand gun during the rush, you didn't get ripped off. For example, the glut may drive down sale prices to below what I paid for my ARs, but that doesn't mean I made a bad decision or that I got ripped off. Price can and do dip below the cost to manufacture in these situations; its one way companies run losses to make it though hard times.

Your looking at the mid-range ARs. Can't really go wrong with any of them, but you can optimize their features to suit your needs better. Let us know if you have any specific questions about feature comparison, etc.

Edit: An interesting exercise is to look at the mildly surging high capacity mag prices. It is unlikely that they will be banned, but the thought that it could happen is driving people to stock up on what they need or make an "investment" to sell later at a higher price. Time will tell who is right or wrong.

[Radiac]

OK, I had to look up mid-length vs carbine length gas systems and now I am enlightened. Lot's of homework to do. I'm not going to rush into anything.

[totes6]

I have been looking into AR-15s as well. And it really seems to me that they are a lot like Chevy Small Block engines. You can buy one stock that will work for most stuff in general. You can take that stock engine put add on parts to help make it work better in a particular area. Or you can even buy the parts yourself piece by piece and build the thing yourself.

So following this analogy the cheapest option is find some friends with something that you think you might like and see if they will let you test/work with the product. Then you know if you will like how it functions or not. The next option is to get one stock and build it up from there. But either way you have to get your hands dirty and just start working with them, otherwise you just won't know. Then you have the method of going off the deep end of not even touching an AR-15 and just buying parts that you think you will like and piecing it together. For some people that just have that talent, it works great for others like me, if I somehow managed to get an AR-15 put together from parts the first time, I am pretty sure I would end up with some extra screws/springs.

That is just my $.02, YMMV. But gets your hands dirty and have some fun.

[gunderwood]

I have been looking into AR-15s as well. And it really seems to me that they are a lot like Chevy Small Block engines. You can buy one stock that will work for most stuff in general. You can take that stock engine put add on parts to help make it work better in a particular area. Or you can even buy the parts yourself piece by piece and build the thing yourself.

So following this analogy the cheapest option is find some friends with something that you think you might like and see if they will let you test/work with the product. Then you know if you will like how it functions or not. The next option is to get one stock and build it up from there. But either way you have to get your hands dirty and just start working with them, otherwise you just won't know. Then you have the method of going off the deep end of not even touching an AR-15 and just buying parts that you think you will like and piecing it together. For some people that just have that talent, it works great for others like me, if I somehow managed to get an AR-15 put together from parts the first time, I am pretty sure I would end up with some extra screws/springs.

That is just my $.02, YMMV. But gets your hands dirty and have some fun.

I wouldn't sweat the details either (I do, but that isn't always the right way). I provide them for completeness sake, but totes is right, for a range toy any manufacturer in your price range is just fine.

[Radiac]

Actually,......Now that it's been mentioned, I have thought about building the lower myself and going from there. If there's one thing I always liked to do ever since I was a kid it was to take stuff apart, fix it if needed and put it back together again. Had a good career doing it too. This definitely appeals to the tech./mech. side of me.

[Radiac]

I have read the pros on piston driven systems. Any cons?

[gunderwood]

I have read the pros on piston driven systems. Any cons?

Slight weight penalty, accuracy penalty and potential reliability and wear issues. The piston itself is fine, but the AR wasn't originally designed as a "piston" gun. This causes potential timing and/or binding/wear issues. E.g. bolt carrier tilt, cam pin receiver wear, etc. Also be aware of where the gas vents from the piston. Some of them vent sideways so they can be blowing hot gas towards your hand.

In the strictest sense, a DI AR is a piston based gun. The piston is simply in the bolt carrier and is an integral part of the bolt. The gas enters the BC and starts expanding in the internal piston. That presses against the bolt (pushes towards the chamber) and the BC (pushes it rearward). That makes unlocking and extraction easier to a small extent because there is pressure on both sides of the bolt (more on the chamber though). That gas expanding in the BC is what causes the BC to move rearward.

This has benefits because it keeps weight off the front of the gun and off the barrel so handling/accuracy is improved. It also makes the recoil forces directly inline with the action because the gas is pushing from the center of the BC (which why BCT is an issue with piston guns). It also has disadvantages such as bringing all that heat into the action and the piston must vent somewhere which means it vents in the action.

The AR wasn't designed to have a cycling force off center, so it lacks a large anti-tilt mechanism (look at how other piston guns have large "rails" to guide the bolt/carrier). The AR has little tiny ones and an AL receiver. Some people say BCT is a big deal, others say it doesn't matter. You notice it because you get wear on the buffer extension tube because the BC tilts downwards and wears there.

The Cam pin and locking lugs have a similar problem. The friction induced by the piston seals takes a lot of the load when the bolt hits a new round to chamber it. Look at how the BC/bolt work. You will notice that the force of chambering a round wants to push the bolt back into the BC, but when it does that the cam pin wants to twist it (that's how the bolt/lug lock into the barrel). The upper on an AR has a channel and and a cut to prevent or allow the cam pin to twist respectively. The cut is that weird semi-circle cut towards the chamber and opposite of the ejection port. This why one of the primary reasons ARs jam is lack of lubrication. Search youtube and you can find videos showing how force against the bolt face causes the cam pin to bind the whole bolt carrier. Keep a DI AR well lubed and they can go thousands of rounds without cleaning. There have been attempts to put springs where the old DI piston was to solve this problem.

Nothing is perfect and how much of an issue these are is opinion.

IMHO, if you go gas piston the best are those who have created a proprietary bolt/BC in an attempt to address these issues. One of the better is Barretts, but I don't own one so take that with a grain of salt. LMTs are suppose to be great too. Of course proprietary parts are always a concern. You'll notice that most people doing custom bolt/BCs to address these issues also charge a lot more for them.

[Radiac]

Thank you once again Gunderwood for all of your input. And I've decided to go with a Spikes Tactical midlength setup.

[SDChop]

My experience with RRA has been good. I have an entry tactical at the moment and it has not failed me shooting yet. I have the upper for sale because im making it a SBR but and keeping my RRA lower because they have not given me a reason to change yet. Their 10.5 upper is still on my list as well to look at.

[Radiac]

I have ordered the Spikes mid-length complete. Can't wait till it comes in.

[Radiac]

My Spikes mid-length came in last weekend. Then I got sick. I'm still sick. This whole week has been nice and I haven't been able to get to the range. This really, really sucks and I can't find a smilie to match my mood. If I click view more smilies IE just gives me a "Web page cannot be found". IE sucks.