Getting into Reloading, suggestions

[SgtBill]

Thank's
It works great for me. I load most likely in the area of 100 to 150,000 rounds a year of everything from .380 to .44 Mag in handgun and from .223 to .300 Weatherby in rifle. I load for myself and most of my 5 kids along with several of my grand children and friends and neighbors. It's a damn good thing that I am retired. LOL
Bill

[CowboyT]

The Classic Turret Press is also an excellent choice. I've got a set of vids on that, too. However, despite Lee's apparent claims, it won't do .50 BMG, chiefly because there's no turret that will fit the big Fifty. Their single-stage Classic Cast is really the right tool (among Lee presses) for that cartridge and its derivatives.

The Classic Turret will handle just about anything else, though, all the way to .416 Rigby length. My 7.62x54R rounds are child's play for this press. The Pro 1000 is really primarily a handgun press, though it will do .223 Remington and 7.62x39. .308 Winchester's a no-go, though, unless you disable the auto-index. Personally, I'd rather use a Classic Turret than any progressive for high-powered rifle rounds.

I saw that the Dillon owners came out in some force. Nothing wrong with the blue presses; they're certainly good stuff. However, the cost of entry can scare away potential new reloaders, and we need numbers. Not everybody needs a Mercedes S-class. That's where I think Lee has done a great service for the hobby of reloading ammunition--lowering the cost barrier to entry. And their gear, too, produces mighty fine ammunition.

[Palladin]

+1 for Lee on getting started - and the aluminum molds for casting work well too.

[dusty14u]

The Classic Turret Press is also an excellent choice. I've got a set of vids on that, too. However, despite Lee's apparent claims, it won't do .50 BMG, chiefly because there's no turret that will fit the big Fifty. Their single-stage Classic Cast is really the right tool (among Lee presses) for that cartridge and its derivatives.

The Classic Turret will handle just about anything else, though, all the way to .416 Rigby length. My 7.62x54R rounds are child's play for this press. The Pro 1000 is really primarily a handgun press, though it will do .223 Remington and 7.62x39. .308 Winchester's a no-go, though, unless you disable the auto-index. Personally, I'd rather use a Classic Turret than any progressive for high-powered rifle rounds.

I saw that the Dillon owners came out in some force. Nothing wrong with the blue presses; they're certainly good stuff. However, the cost of entry can scare away potential new reloaders, and we need numbers. Not everybody needs a Mercedes S-class. That's where I think Lee has done a great service for the hobby of reloading ammunition--lowering the cost barrier to entry. And their gear, too, produces mighty fine ammunition.

I agree 100%. I use two Classic Turrets and have never had an issue with either one. I load 6 rifle and 5 pistol calibers. I mainly order all of my components online. I keep the dies loaded/setup on the aluminum discs and can change calibers in a few seconds.


If you have a Glock and want to shoot lead bullets just buy a regularly rifled barrel for it. I purchased an EFK Dragon match barrel for my G30. I had to use some india stones to fit it properly and it is a nice barrel. Costs approx $150 for one. Wolf or Lone wolf also make barrels for glocks.

[gunderwood]

If you have a Glock and want to shoot lead bullets just buy a regularly rifled barrel for it. I purchased an EFK Dragon match barrel for my G30. I had to use some india stones to fit it properly and it is a nice barrel. Costs approx $150 for one. Wolf or Lone wolf also make barrels for glocks.

Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of having a 9mm? The safe loads for lead rounds are much lower in velocity than jacketed. On something like a .45 it doesn't matter, but higher velocity rounds do. I guess you could go the gas check and special alloys, but that significantly raises the costs as well.

[Palladin]

If you have a Glock and want to shoot lead bullets just buy a regularly rifled barrel for it. I purchased an EFK Dragon match barrel for my G30. I had to use some india stones to fit it properly and it is a nice barrel. Costs approx $150 for one. Wolf or Lone wolf also make barrels for glocks.

Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of having a 9mm? The safe loads for lead rounds are much lower in velocity than jacketed. On something like a .45 it doesn't matter, but higher velocity rounds do. I guess you could go the gas check and special alloys, but that significantly raises the costs as well.

Did I miss something here? So what is the purpose of having a a 9mm?

I'm limited $ wise in the amount of guns I can own and the ammo I can feed them. If my chosen small piece is a 9mm, and I can afford to shoot more w/ cast loads, where's the harm in that? Just clean her well after a day of fun, and the PP ammo goes back in the mag.

[gunderwood]

If you have a Glock and want to shoot lead bullets just buy a regularly rifled barrel for it. I purchased an EFK Dragon match barrel for my G30. I had to use some india stones to fit it properly and it is a nice barrel. Costs approx $150 for one. Wolf or Lone wolf also make barrels for glocks.

Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of having a 9mm? The safe loads for lead rounds are much lower in velocity than jacketed. On something like a .45 it doesn't matter, but higher velocity rounds do. I guess you could go the gas check and special alloys, but that significantly raises the costs as well.

Did I miss something here? So what is the purpose of having a a 9mm?

I'm limited $ wise in the amount of guns I can own and the ammo I can feed them. If my chosen small piece is a 9mm, and I can afford to shoot more w/ cast loads, where's the harm in that? Just clean her well after a day of fun, and the PP ammo goes back in the mag.

No harm done, but I was wondering. The standard 9mm load is 124gr @ around 1200fps (NATO), but that is usually too fast for 9mm. I guess you could shoot 147gr at proper velocities.

[Vahunter]

Nothing wrong with Lee loaders until they break. I hear their customer service sucks. I do own one set of lee dies. They feel like they are from a ntaural light can.

[dusty14u]

Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of having a 9mm? The safe loads for lead rounds are much lower in velocity than jacketed. On something like a .45 it doesn't matter, but higher velocity rounds do. I guess you could go the gas check and special alloys, but that significantly raises the costs as well.

Many of my friends cast their own bullets. Rifle and pistol. I don't but I have bought the lead bullets because they are much cheaper to load for than FMJ. I have recently switched to copper plated but only for cleaning purposes. All of the lead performed well. The biggest difference I saw was in my .357 mag loads. My FMJ are pushing 1600fps whereas the lead I kept to about 1300fps.

I am wondering what reloading manuals you use to make a statement like that? I use Hornaday 7th Edition and Modern Reloading 2nd Edition for most of my pistol calibers. On pg 799 of the Hornaday they list a 124gr lead roundnose being pushed at 1100fps with 5.0 grains of Unique. I wouldn't say that is much lower. In fact the Hornaday doesn't differentiate between FMJ or lead. They list the loading data as being the same for both.

Modern Reloading lists the 124 rain lead round nose using v-3N37 ,6 grains pushing it @1234fps. All of the FMJ loads are within 50fps. How is that much lower in velocity?

[gunderwood]

Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of having a 9mm? The safe loads for lead rounds are much lower in velocity than jacketed. On something like a .45 it doesn't matter, but higher velocity rounds do. I guess you could go the gas check and special alloys, but that significantly raises the costs as well.

Many of my friends cast their own bullets. Rifle and pistol. I don't but I have bought the lead bullets because they are much cheaper to load for than FMJ. I have recently switched to copper plated but only for cleaning purposes. All of the lead performed well. The biggest difference I saw was in my .357 mag loads. My FMJ are pushing 1600fps whereas the lead I kept to about 1300fps.

I am wondering what reloading manuals you use to make a statement like that? I use Hornaday 7th Edition and Modern Reloading 2nd Edition for most of my pistol calibers. On pg 799 of the Hornaday they list a 124gr lead roundnose being pushed at 1100fps with 5.0 grains of Unique. I wouldn't say that is much lower. In fact the Hornaday doesn't differentiate between FMJ or lead. They list the loading data as being the same for both.

Modern Reloading lists the 124 rain lead round nose using v-3N37 ,6 grains pushing it @1234fps. All of the FMJ loads are within 50fps. How is that much lower in velocity?

Those are their bullets, not cast from lead weights and such. There are lead rounds which can be shot much faster. Case in point, I shoot a Garrett Cartridge lead 420gr .45/70 @ 1850fps, but to accomplish that they must use special alloys and a gas check. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but that usually casters keep their lead rounds closer to 1000fps. Beyond that you can get leading problems which induces pressure problems. You could go through the trouble of making a high antimony lead and casting that, but the casters I know don't seem to ever bother. I would say 100fps is significant in a SD handgun. That's approx. a 10% reduction and often is the difference between what we consider full power loads and powder puff loads. If you practice like you fight, 100fps is a big deal.

You are actually wrong about Hornady not specing their lead bullets different than their jacketed. Read the note under the loading data, it says: "NOTE: Lead bullets should be kept under 1100fps." That is why most error on the side of caution and keep it closer to 1000fps. Also, that is 9mm Luger data which is not considered as hot as the NATO spec/SD ammo. I've played around with QuickLoad and Hornay's loads (many calibers). Generally Hornady errors on the side of caution and almost never recommends a load near max pressure. Most reloading books do.

[fireman836]

Shadowbyte I started with the Lee single stage Classic Press with the Lee 4 die set for 9 mm and it is a good press. I still use it. I'm getting ready to start loading 38/357 for my revolver and rifle. Eventually will get into 7.62x54r rifle rounds also.

I started with the lee classic single stage press http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/de ... ber=317831. When I bought it it came in a kit like the challenger Breech Loader - http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/de ... mber=42308. The Classic is cast iron Challenger is cast aluminum. The Challenger Breech Lock has some new feachers’ the Classic doesn't. Which appears to make changing dies between stages easier and with less adjusting each time though. Also the price listed for the Classic press looks to be about what I paid for the whole kit before.

Good luck I enjoy it.

[CowboyT]

If you have a Glock and want to shoot lead bullets just buy a regularly rifled barrel for it. I purchased an EFK Dragon match barrel for my G30. I had to use some india stones to fit it properly and it is a nice barrel. Costs approx $150 for one. Wolf or Lone wolf also make barrels for glocks.

Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of having a 9mm? The safe loads for lead rounds are much lower in velocity than jacketed. On something like a .45 it doesn't matter, but higher velocity rounds do. I guess you could go the gas check and special alloys, but that significantly raises the costs as well.

As a caster, I must disagree some with that. When you had me out to the property to shoot, I brought my "wild" .45 Colt cast boolit loads, which chrono'd at about 1,260 fps thanks to a healthy charge of Alliant 2400. I shoot a fair amount of these and get virtually no leading in my barrel. The reason is that I use a 50/50 lead/Lino mixture. I got my Linotype for about the same price as wheel weight alloy, so it didn't increase the price for me.

That begs the question: isn't that expensive compared to those who get their wheel weight alloy for free? Definitely. So, let's take the free wheel weight scenario. Water quenching wheel weight boolits as they drop from the mould will make them at least BHN 16 and more commonly BHN 19-20 after a few weeks of aging. Thus, the free wheel weight caster can get virtually the same results as Linotype users for less. I've found that the optimum hardness for 27,000 PSI to 30,000 PSI (typical civilian 9mm Parabellum pressures) is about BHN 15-16, so quenched and properly aged wheel weight alloy should be perfect for the hotter 9mm NATO.

Thus, you don't really need to make very high-antimony-content alloys. However, those who do have some Linotype handy can also make a very good alloy with that and some sheet lead. I do this regularly, and it's not at all difficult (hey, if I can do it, it can't be that difficult! ).

[gunderwood]

As a caster, I must disagree some with that. When you had me out to the property to shoot, I brought my "wild" .45 Colt cast boolit loads, which chrono'd at about 1,260 fps thanks to a healthy charge of Alliant 2400. I shoot a fair amount of these and get virtually no leading in my barrel. The reason is that I use a 50/50 lead/Lino mixture. I got my Linotype for about the same price as wheel weight alloy, so it didn't increase the price for me.

That begs the question: isn't that expensive compared to those who get their wheel weight alloy for free? Definitely. So, let's take the free wheel weight scenario. Water quenching wheel weight boolits as they drop from the mould will make them at least BHN 16 and more commonly BHN 19-20 after a few weeks of aging. Thus, the free wheel weight caster can get virtually the same results as Linotype users for less. I've found that the optimum hardness for 27,000 PSI to 30,000 PSI (typical civilian 9mm Parabellum pressures) is about BHN 15-16, so quenched and properly aged wheel weight alloy should be perfect for the hotter 9mm NATO.

Thus, you don't really need to make very high-antimony-content alloys. However, those who do have some Linotype handy can also make a very good alloy with that and some sheet lead. I do this regularly, and it's not at all difficult (hey, if I can do it, it can't be that difficult! ).

I defer to your experience on this. The reloading books I have advise against loading up high speed lead rounds, but they often take the minimal risk approach that must work in every gun.

[ShadowByte]

Thank you everyone for the great feedback, its great to hear from personal experience.

I think I am pretty settled on the lee 4 hole classic (cast iron) turret press. The review on this seem to be pretty consistent in the positive, and I think coupled with a nice set of carbide dies, should work well for many years to come. Also, it seems incredibly easy to switch dies too, which will be nice when I start loading other calibers.

Also, out of curiosity, how far does 1lb of powder go for 9mm reloading? I realize this will vary, but lets say the load is 4.7 per round. I could be way off on this number, so please correct me if I am. This is based off of some quick references, and obviously I am going to get a reloading manual shortly here

Dusty14u, that was a good suggestion on switching out the barrel for lead rounds, never thought about that. I will keep that in mind if I ever decide to go that route.

[meak99]

1 lb = 7000 grain wt.

Assuming minimal spillage, using 4.7 grain charges, you'd get roughly 1400 round per lb.

[CowboyT]

One other thing regarding Glocks, cast bullets, and the polygonal rifling. I know someone who does this with his bone-stock Glock and reports minimal leading. I asked him about this, and he says his "secret" is a combination of the following:

1.) properly sized bullets,
2.) lubing the entire bullet, not just the lube grooves (he uses 2 thin coats of liquid Alox), and
3.) keeping the alloy of the proper hardness (he uses BHN ~16).

He still gets a little leading, but he says it's somewhat less than what most people get with grooved rifling, so he considers that acceptable and just cleans his gun normally. Given that I use this same strategy with my wheelguns (now you know where I learned it!) and have nearly zero leading, I do give the idea credence. For those with stock Glocks, the potential cost savings might be worth giving it a try.

[gunderwood]

One other thing regarding Glocks, cast bullets, and the polygonal rifling. I know someone who does this with his bone-stock Glock and reports minimal leading. I asked him about this, and he says his "secret" is a combination of the following:

1.) properly sized bullets,
2.) lubing the entire bullet, not just the lube grooves (he uses 2 thin coats of liquid Alox), and
3.) keeping the alloy of the proper hardness (he uses BHN ~16).

He still gets a little leading, but he says it's somewhat less than what most people get with grooved rifling, so he considers that acceptable and just cleans his gun normally. Given that I use this same strategy with my wheelguns (now you know where I learned it!) and have nearly zero leading, I do give the idea credence. For those with stock Glocks, the potential cost savings might be worth giving it a try.

How many rounds does he shoot in a sitting? I guess with lots of care it could possibly work, but I like my fingers so I'll stick to jacketed bullets for my Glocks.

[CowboyT]

About 150 or so, IIRC. He shoots about once a week.

Remember that polygonal rifling has been around for centuries before jacketed bullets came on the scene. What you're probably reading and hearing about with the KB's is people who both don't bother to clean their guns (never good, regardless of firearm type) and who use improper hardness alloy and improper lube for their bullets. Most vendors that I've seen selling cast bullets generally sell the "hard cast" BHN 18-22 variety, which is too hard for the pressures generated by 9mm Para rounds to get the lead to properly obturate, hence gas cutting. Likewise, these same vendors often fill the lube grooves with lube that is way too hard for the application. I have some of them with that blue or red wax stuff. If they'd use the NRA 50/50 formula, that'd be much better. The laws of physics don't change just because polygonal rifling's in play. You still need proper bullet obturation and proper lube to get the best performance, regardless of rifling type.

Also, those store-bought cast bullets need to be able to physically fit and chamber in any gun out there. However, we all know that some guns can run tight chambers, and some a bit large. Thus, I find that the cast bullet vendors size right to 0.355" (assuming 9mm applications), when your gun's chamber and bore might be 0.356" or even 0.357". I've seen it. If your bullet is soft enough, you can get away with this because obturation will save you. But if it's too hard...GAS CUTTING! LEADING! Exactly what we want to avoid here.

So, that begs two questions: First, why do so many cast bullet vendors sell these extra-hard bullets when very few applications actually call for such hardness? And second, why do they use these hard-wax lubes?

The vendors use such hard alloy basically to prevent deforming during shipping, thanks to improper packing (going cheap), the infamous gorillas at the Post Office or UPS, or a combination of both. This way they prevent customers from calling them saying, "hey, some of these bullets are deformed--wassup??" Proper packing would of course solve that problem, but that costs money, so they use extra-hard alloy.

This leads to the lube. Given the mondo hardness of these bullets, the proper application for them is really closer to mid-range .454 Casull-type pressures or perhaps the original 45,000 CUP rating for the .357 Magnum. That's some sizzlin' pressures and velocities there. For those applications, the hard wax lubes then start to become more appropriate, but even then, the NRA 50/50 formula is optimal. I've looked at some of my targets after trying the hard bullets with that hard lube, and the lube doesn't seem to melt very well. There are blue or red (as appropriate) pieces of wax ring stuck on my targets. The NRA 50/50 formula is softer and will coat the bore better. Liquid Alox, which I use for all of my cast "boolits", is also an excellent performer even to Elmer's original .357 Mag pressures (I haven't yet gone beyond that 'cause it's not that fun to shoot regularly).

So, I honestly don't believe it'd be a danger to use cast bullets in polygonal rifling, if the proper matching as described here is done, and if one simply cleans his/her gun as we normally should be doing anyway. If I owned a Glock or similar pistol (this actually may happen someday, since I think Glocks are kinda cool after trying out gunderwood's), I would certainly develop a cast "boolit" load for it.

BTW, I realize that we're now going a bit beyond "getting into reloading" into some more advanced topics. But some casting houses will make bullets of the proper hardness for you if you ask for it. Combined with a little liquid Alox lube on 'em before using them to reload, that should take care of any leading issues and can make 9mm reloading much more economical.

[t33j]

Some casting houses will make bullets of the proper hardness for you if you ask for it.

https://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php

I've used these guys. Customer Service is excellent.

[gunderwood]

About 150 or so, IIRC. He shoots about once a week.

Remember that polygonal rifling has been around for centuries before jacketed bullets came on the scene. What you're probably reading and hearing about with the KB's is people who both don't bother to clean their guns (never good, regardless of firearm type) and who use improper hardness alloy and improper lube for their bullets.

No, it's straight out of Glocks manuals/publications: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/manual.html

The guns of old didn't push their bullets anywhere near the velocities we push ours thanks to smokeless powders. Of course, there is disagreement on the subject. From the footnotes of that link I find this comment interesting (although the previous footnote disagreed with it):

If you haven't had trouble shooting lead bullets in polygonal rifling, just be patient. – Gale McMillan

A 150 rounds in a sitting isn't that much. It is a lot per gun when you have a range trip like you and I did where we shoot many guns and try stuff out, but if you are just taking one gun that isn't that many. The next source recommends 200 rounds max before a good cleaning.

Can I shoot lead bullets in my Glock?
This has been debated on rec.guns and GlockTalk about 10,000 times. There are basically 2 schools of thought:

School #1: Don't Do It
Glock barrels use special polygonal rifling not found in most handguns. This rifling is one of the main reasons Glocks are extremely accurate guns. However, the same rifling can cause a high degree of leading when not using jacketed bullets. In other words some lead from the bullet sticks to the inside of the barrel when it is fired. Too much leading can quickly lead to high pressures which can cause the barrel and/or gun to break or even explode. Most people who weigh in on this subject fall into this category including Glock Inc.

School #2: Don't Worry About It
If you clean your barrel well and do it every time you shoot there will be no significant leading. Many, many people use lead bullets almost exclusively in their Glocks and do not have any problems whatsoever.

Additional notes from Hoss:
Not all lead is created equally. You can shoot lead in your Glock (probably) but you should use a hard lead from a reputable manufacturer. The homemade lead bullets made from wheel weights and other recycled lead should be avoided! Just becuase one type of lead bullet and load shoot fine in one glock does not mean it will be safe in others. Each barrel is different and must be carefully checked when first using lead.

Additional notes from JT:
You *can* shoot lead in a polygonal barrel, as many Glocksters do. But you need to be aware of some potential dangers in using lead bullets, not to mention voiding your Glock warranty if you use non-factory ammo.

First, if you decide to use lead bullets, use hardcast bullets at medium velocities for best results. This will reduce potential leading of the bore. Theoretically, polygonal rifling allows the bullet to seal the gases better than traditional land and groove rifling, thereby increasing velocities but also increasing potential problems with bore-leading-induced pressure spikes. Lead particles from the bullets have no where to hide in polygonal rifling as in the lands and grooves of conventional rifling and with better bullet-to-bore sealing, serious pressure spikes can develop when the bore is fouled.

However, note that some dismiss the purported velocity increases with polygonal rifling. Mike Orrick (GlockTalk's "BrokenArrows") has pointed out that his chronographed results of identical loads in conventionally-rifled barrels versus same-length polygonal barrels yielded higher velocities in some of the conventionally-rifled barrels.

Secondly, absolutely get all the lead out after at least every 200 rounds to avoid lead buildup, pressure spikes and potential corresponding kBs! With the tighter seal of the bullet, pressures can increase significantly in polygonal barrels. There have even been reports of Ranier-type bullets shedding bits of copper jacket in polygonal barrels, causing the same pressure spikes that are caused by excessive leading. Just be sure to use hard-cast lead bullets or good-quality jacketed bullets and keep the velocities down to earth.

Thirdly, polygonal rifling doesn't get the same grip on the bullet as conventional rifling. This may affect accuracy with some loads, especially hot ones. Even with using copper-jacketed bullets, some LEAs have reportedly banned the use of polygonal barrels in duty guns because of the potential difficulty in forensically identifying the rifling patterns on a bullet shot from a polygonal barrel. IOW, it's sometimes impossible to identify which polygonal barrel a particular bullet was shot from. Who shot whom?

Another recommendation is to moly-coat your lead bullets and/or treat your barrel with one of the spaceage lubricants, such as TW25B spray from Kleen-Bore. This will definitely help the cleaning process and may even increase velocities slightly and help with accuracy.

Last, but not least, most experts recommend getting a conventionally-rifled barrel from replacement barrelmakers such as Jarvis or Bar-Sto if you shoot a lot of lead. These barrels generally offer more case support than stock Glock barrels as a bonus. Use your replacement barrel for practice and the stock barrel for carry.
http://www.glockfaq.com/content.aspx?ck ... oading#can

I think the truth of the matter is the underlined point. As hand loaders we do a great many things factory's would not consider doing because we can tune it to one specific firearm while theirs must work in all firearms. Of course that requires the utmost in caution and a experience.