Are there any 1,000 yard or longer ranges from Roanoke west?

[dorminWS]

If not, where CAN a body go to stretch out for some 500-1500 yard shots?

[wylde007]

1000 YARDS?!?!

You do know that is over a half mile, right?

[gunderwood]

The only 1k range in VA that I am aware of is Quantico. The next nearest are in central PA (north of Harrisburg) and in NC. The nearest ~1 mile range is in Ohio last I checked. 300 yards isn't that hard to find, but 500+ is very rare in VA. Of course private land is possible too.

What are you planning to shoot at those distances? Been studying up on it?

[wylde007]

A man-size target at ½-mile is little over an eighth of an inch high, I think.

If you want to "practice" at that range of fire, reduce your target sizes relevant to distance.

You will lose some for sight , windage and "drop" errors by reducing true fire distance, but finding a public range to suit your needs is going to be tough.

You might try abandoned, private airfields.

[gunderwood]

A man-size target at ½-mile is little over an eighth of an inch high, I think.

If you want to "practice" at that range of fire, reduce your target sizes relevant to distance.

You will lose some for sight , windage and "drop" errors by reducing true fire distance, but finding a public range to suit your needs is going to be tough.

You might try abandoned, private airfields.

It works, but it is no where near the same. Smaller targets is not the primary problem of long distance shooting. Skills like wind reading are far more important and reducing scale just doesn't cut it.

[wylde007]

Didn't I follow up my statement with that exact information?

Yes. Yes I did.

[gunderwood]

Didn't I follow up my statement with that exact information?

Yes. Yes I did.

You said you will loose some, but that is not at all true. The least of your worries is target size. The main point of the long range game is all of those other variables become critical. Estimate the wind wrong at that distance and you completely miss. Estimate range the range wrong and you will completely shoot over or under a man sized target at those ranges (the danger space shrinks considerably). You made it sound like you could effectively practice the 1000k+ game at 300 yards and nothing could be further from the truth. You can practice mechanics which carry over at any range.

The point is that the critical variables are non-linear with range so what is a 1" error at 100 yards is >>10" of error at 1000k yards. The skills you must master are compensating for non-linear variables so scaling is worth nothing.

[wylde007]

You made it sound like you could effectively practice the 1000k+ game at 300 yards

You put those words in my mouth.

I implied nothing.

[gunderwood]

You made it sound like you could effectively practice the 1000k+ game at 300 yards

You put those words in my mouth.

I implied nothing.

I'm guessing you have never even attempted to shoot at those ranges. Anyways...


The OP asked about 1k and ranges in VA out to 300 aren't that hard to find so I did put that number in there. However, you did make it sound like target scaling was key, which it isn't. You said explicitly you will loose some, which again is incorrect. Here is an example of why linear scaling doesn't work at all except for basic mechanics which you can practice in your house with dry firing.

Danger space and wind shrinking non-linearly with range. I'm using this public calc so people can check the results. http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

I'll use the .308Win 175SMK at 2650fps which is approximately what our military shoots today out of their sniper rifles. Steps to configure the calc.

1. Use drop down menu to choose the Sierra Match King 175gr (Litz)
2. Set muzzle velocity to 2650fps and distance to chrono to 0ft.
3. Leave wind speed at 10MPH, but change target speed to 0MPH.
4. The default is a 12" target, but lets change that to 24" which would represent a center of mass shot on a human sized target.
5. Click the include danger space checkbox and then calculate.

First, take a look at the drop. With a 100 yard zero, there is 4.2" of drop at 300 yards, but 412" (34+ ft) at 1000k. Despite the linear scaler only being 3.3x, the drop increased by nearly 100x. Another way to look at this is danger space. In lay mans terms, it tells you how far off your range estimate can be before you miss the target even with a perfect shoot. At 300 yards any range estimate of 178-370 yards will still allow you to hit a target of 24" which actually is at 300 yards despite your awful range estimate, if everything else is spot on. Of course you will be high or low depending on your error. That equates to roughly 40% error margin on the low end and 23% at the high. However, at 1000 yards your range call must be between 990 and 1010 yards or a scant +-1% error. Add in the fact that your ability to accurately call range decreases as the range increases and it is trivial to see that short range scaled practice just doesn't cut it.

Now let's look at the wind. What is a mere 7.1" at 300 yards is now a huge 108.5" at 1k. Again, much greater than a scaled 3.3x would have you believe if you were practicing at short range. Of course this ignores the fact that calling wind to <1MPH at 1k is nothing at all like doing it at a mere 300 yards. Short range is so, well short, that you can practically measure the wind speed at your location and assume it is true out to the target. However, at long range it is not uncommon to see winds completely shift direction. Calling that off of visual indicators is a whole different story.

There are things like spin drift that are barely measurable at short range, but add up into inches at 1k.

If you really want to learn the long range game you must be willing to drive or know people with lots of land. Scaling like you suggested just doesn't even come close to cutting it.

[caps85]

The only 1k range in VA that I am aware of is Quantico. The next nearest are in central PA (north of Harrisburg) and in NC. The nearest ~1 mile range is in Ohio last I checked. 300 yards isn't that hard to find, but 500+ is very rare in VA. Of course private land is possible too.

What are you planning to shoot at those distances? Been studying up on it?

Quantico range 4 is 1K yards but be aware you must be sponsored in order to shoot, and if you are non DOD there is a waiting list.

[Palladin]

My money's on gunderwood for the longshot!

Some of you guys are loaded, so I'll plug this place again.

http://www.centralvirginiatactical.com/

When you go, tell all about, 'cause I don't see it in my immediate future...

[dorminWS]

Yes, wylde007, I certainly do know 1,000 yards is over half a mile. It's .568182 miles, to be exact; which is 13.6% more than half a mile. Its 3,000 feet. It's 4.54545 furlongs, 181.81 rods, and, if you want to get downright biblical about it, it's 1,987.83 cubits, BYGOSH! It's also just 92% of the 1,910-yard stated effective range of my .338 Lapua; which I've been told will accurately reach out in excess of 2,000 yards. Pardon me if it seems like I'm being a little condescending to you, but it's my turn. You’ve done and had your’n.

Gunderwood, I've often thought that you love a debate so much you'd argue with a cotton-pickin' milepost, but when you're right, you're right; and I'm nearly as bad. Thanks for the info on the severe shortage of long ranges hereabouts. Reducing the scale of the target would pretty much turn into plowing when you started shooting little plastic hot wheels cars from 50 yards away with a .50BMG, wouldn't it? The reason I named the 1,500-yard figure was that I just broke over and bought myself a Bushmaster BA-50; and so I'm now in the .50BMG business (or will be as soon as I can scratch up the money for a scope).

ByGum, I might just see if I can lease a patch of strip mine out here somewhere and put a certain retired Bird Colonel and NRA firearms instructor I know in the shootin' range business. He's always wanted one. Closest 1,000 yard range I know of is in Oak Ridge, TN.

[gunderwood]

PM me if you want to talk about the 50BMG on the phone. I probably have some old dies and such laying around if you were interested. Don't skimp on the scope. When I first got mine I tried out a cheap Bushnell 3200 Elite so I could shoot it until I picked up a nicer scope. I never could get it zeroed because the reticle was moving from the recoil!

[Jakeiscrazy]

There are even enough outdoor ranges, much less 1000 yard ranges!

[wylde007]

However, you did make it sound like target scaling was key, which it isn't.

Target scaling is A key.

I mentioned windage. I mentioned drop. I mentioned sight error.

Yes, all of those things are multiplied/magnified when distance increases.

I sure don't know why you're picking a nit that has nothing to do with my point. But, if it makes you feel better.

And no, I have not yet shot "that" far. But I know places where I can if I want to... but it's probably not a good idea. Oh, and the OP is a smart-alec.

Ask a stupid question, I guess.

[gunderwood]

However, you did make it sound like target scaling was key, which it isn't.

Target scaling is A key.

I mentioned windage. I mentioned drop. I mentioned sight error.

Yes, all of those things are multiplied/magnified when distance increases.

I sure don't know why you're picking a nit that has nothing to do with my point. But, if it makes you feel better.

And no, I have not yet shot "that" far. But I know places where I can if I want to... but it's probably not a good idea. Oh, and the OP is a smart-alec.

Ask a stupid question, I guess.

I picked on it because it was wrong and it perpetuates an incorrect assumption about the linearity of long range shooting...i.e. it isn't. People make claims all the time about linear scaling and how they can shoot a 1" group at 200 yards which would be a 5" group at 1k. It's just plain wrong, it doesn't scale linearly, up or down. With good optics, target scaling is practically irrelevant as long as mirage isn't an issue. I put a 25x scope on my .338LM, which can go way out past 2000 yards (I'm not that good yet), but at 2500 yards a 25x scope looks like irons at 100 yards.

Target scaling works fine for basic riflemanship, particularly at distances simulating under 300-500 yards with a larger centerfire rifle. E.g. It works fairly well when you only have a 100 yard range and want to shoot like it is 300 yards. The non-linear differences between the two are minimal so linear scaling works. That simply doesn't hold true for ranges approaching 1k and beyond. That is why programs like the Appleseed project use it. At short range the linear effects are dominate so the basic mechanics training is valid. If you are trying to shoot long range and don't have the basics down you're SOL. The skills you need are to adjust for non-linear corrections.

[wylde007]

It was not wrong. It was 100% correct. I provided all of the appropriate caveats. You then made your own assumptions about my statements and drew incorrect conclusions based solely on implications which you made.

I simply made a suggestion that could possibly accommodate SOME of his request with a shorter range.

[gunderwood]

It was not wrong. It was 100% correct. I provided all of the appropriate caveats. You then made your own assumptions about my statements and drew incorrect conclusions based solely on implications which you made.

I simply made a suggestion that could possibly accommodate SOME of his request with a shorter range.

Except you didn't. You mislead the OP by suggesting that it would meet his request which it doesn't. Look, if you want to do that go shoot a smaller circle at 100 yards and call it a day, that's fine by me. I know from experience that you are wrong and shooting a smaller target at short range means jack diddle. Thanks for playing.

[wylde007]

Since he did not articulate what his needs were - he merely said he wanted a 1000 yard range, not WHY (also, he said "between 500 and 1500 yards, one hell of a stretch) - there is no way to qualify what his needs were.

I misled no one. I said what I meant. I meant what I said.

Thank YOU for playing.

[gunderwood]

My money's on gunderwood for the longshot!

Some of you guys are loaded, so I'll plug this place again.

http://www.centralvirginiatactical.com/

When you go, tell all about, 'cause I don't see it in my immediate future...

I know the guy who runs that. Simply put, he is the best wind reader in the world and that's no lie. Seriously, the guy has trained various special forces on how to read the wind. He also has lots of funny stories, like the one when he was training a British sniper and a copperhead approached them wanting their hide/shade...(British accent) "Commander Harrison, should I worry about that?"

If you ever get a chance to go, do it! Vern Harrison is the real deal and one of the few who trains civilians and military/LE alike.