How do we Recover and return back to a whole country again?

[Kreutz]

The Cato Institute is actually Libertarian. Just FYI.

Same thing.

[Mindflayer]

Already, there are Washington insiders and special interest groups that hope to co-opt the Tea Party's message and use it to push their own agenda—particularly as it relates to social issues. We are disappointed but not surprised by this development. We recognize the importance of values but believe strongly that those values should be taught by families and our houses of worship and not legislated from Washington, D.C.

[zephyp]

So, if we descend upon DC en masse and stay there camped in the streets and on the lawns and sidewalks indefinitely then that makes an impact.

Ask the Bonus Army how that worked out for them.

They already had nothing left to lose and were still attacked by their own brothers-in-arms. You know, those guys who were just "following orders" and would never "fire on American citizens"?

Yeah. Those guys.

Ok, I've thrown only one possible solution that appears to be within the law and is a Constitutional right.

Do you have any suggestions or are you merely playing devil's advocate on everyone else's?

[wylde007]

Do you have any suggestions or are you merely playing devil's advocate on everyone else's?

Read the DoI. Everything we need as a lawful people to SELF-DETERMINE is included therein.

If we do not like the government - we abolish it. If they do not go peacefully, then we remove them by force.

Or, alternately, we disavow ourselves of any delegated authority to them and secede.

If we do not have the choice to self-govern then we are not free. If we are not free we are slaves. Presently we are slaves.

(Nothing herein should be considered advocating the overthrow of LAWFUL government. The government is not lawful and therefor exempt from the protection of law)

[KaosDad]

Wylde - this country can barely organize a two car funeral. Even amongst real Patriots (define as you wish) you will NEVER get the force you need to depose Capitol Hill. Look at the placing of the Government - unarmed Maryland to the north with clear land ingress, fully armed Virginia separated by water.

So, how you gonna storm the hill?

[wylde007]

So, how you gonna storm the hill?

Nothing worth doing is ever easy, is it?

[gunderwood]

The Cato Institute is actually Libertarian. Just FYI.

Same thing.

Not really. Libertarians are just as upset at the empire building/spending as you.

[Kreutz]

The Cato Institute is actually Libertarian. Just FYI.

Same thing.

Not really. Libertarians are just as upset at the empire building/spending as you.

I do loathe empire building, yes, but I am not opposed to government spending; all govt's spend (and correspondingly tax), they have to.

Libertarians want an almost non-existent gov't. while I favor a strong, centralized one taht does have a reasonable role in our lives.

[gunderwood]

I do loathe empire building, yes, but I am not opposed to government spending; all govt's spend (and correspondingly tax), they have to.

Libertarians want an almost non-existent gov't. while I favor a strong, centralized one taht does have a reasonable role in our lives.

And this has what to do with the price of tea in China?

You asserted that the Cato institute was a right wing institution when it isn't. What you were looking for would be something like http://www.heritage.org. Your assertion that Cato is right wing is no more accurate than asserting it is left wing. If it isn't clear, try this on for size.

Republicans generally want big government until it comes to social issues. E.g. drunken sailors on national defense.
Democrats generally want big government until it comes to national defense. E.g. social programs like you advocate.
Republicans and Democrats aren't all that different, both parties want big government (regardless of what the protests say), but just argue over how to spend the money.

Libertarians hate both or your big governments and are truly diametrically opposed to both parties. Very few libertarians propose an almost non-existent government, but to big government types like you it surely seems like it. I.e. it isn't non-existent, but rather is so vastly different to what we have today and what both Republicans and Democrats propose it seems like it.

[Kreutz]

You asserted that the Cato institute was a right wing institution when it isn't. What you were looking for would be something like http://www.heritage.org. Your assertion that Cato is right wing is no more accurate than asserting it is left wing. If it isn't clear, try this on for size.

I don't think its an incorrect assumption to lump Libertarians under "right wing", generally they are regarded as such, and I don't see how they'd be considered separate.

Republicans generally want big government until it comes to social issues. E.g. drunken sailors on national defense.

Well, yes, the idea of being lectured to on fiscal responsibility by a Republican is like having a whore lecture you on abstinence.

Democrats generally want big government until it comes to national defense. E.g. social programs like you advocate.

Guilty as charged. In my defense I see these having a direct benefit though; people are too old to work, they need a hand, they paid into an insurance system (which social security actually is, ditto for Medicare). Also, they spend that money thus strengthening the overall economy.

The vague notion we may invaded en masse by Cubans tomorrow if we drop some freakishly expensive bomber program needed 60 years ago seems a tad wasteful and alarmist to me.

Libertarians hate both or your big governments and are truly diametrically opposed to both parties. Very few libertarians propose an almost non-existent government, but to big government types like you it surely seems like it. I.e. it isn't non-existent, but rather is so vastly different to what we have today and what both Republicans and Democrats propose it seems like it.

I've had the extreme displeasure of reading Ayn Rand, enough libertarianism to last me a lifetime.

[allingeneral]

E.g. drunken sailors on national defense.

Hey, I think I might be offended!

(ok - not really...those were good years in my life) *grin*

[gunderwood]

You asserted that the Cato institute was a right wing institution when it isn't. What you were looking for would be something like http://www.heritage.org. Your assertion that Cato is right wing is no more accurate than asserting it is left wing. If it isn't clear, try this on for size.

I don't think its an incorrect assumption to lump Libertarians under "right wing", generally they are regarded as such, and I don't see how they'd be considered separate.

To a liberal they are right wing, to a conservative they are left wing. So yes, lumping them in with either is wrong. Both sides lump them in with the "enemy" (i.e. the other side) because libertarians oppose something the two big government parties are proposing. Neither side wants or claims them because they oppose big government entirely.

Democrats generally want big government until it comes to national defense. E.g. social programs like you advocate.

Guilty as charged. In my defense I see these having a direct benefit though; people are too old to work, they need a hand, they paid into an insurance system (which social security actually is, ditto for Medicare). Also, they spend that money thus strengthening the overall economy.

No, SS spending by anyone does not strengthen the economy in anyway. That is a simple minded, economic fallacy which only looks at one side of the equation. You can not create wealth by doing no work. Every penny spent on SS and Medicare must first be extracted from the economy. If there were no programmatic overhead, we would break even at best. No gain, no loss, simply a shift towards things "old" people want vice those who are still working.

However, the government imposes a large overhead to operate these programs. Thus, while monetarily we probably occur no loss (just a shift in demand), economic GDP is harmed because there must be people who do nothing but provide allocation. These people on the government payroll must be taken from productive sectors of the economy and allocated to provide wealth redistribution services. Historically, old people relied on their children directly to provide for them in old age, but they also provided services to the family. E.g. child care, expertise/advise/consulting, etc. which their old age had prepared them well for. Technically they were still working. However, this occurred no GDP drain because the family provide that allocation for "free." Technically not free, but so much more efficient than a government bureaucrat that we might as well consider it free.

Also, SS and Medicare are not insurance, they are a Ponzi scheme. Insurance aggregates and invests the money so that no future payments are required to sustain the system. E.g. life insurance is priced so that when aggregated the payouts are less than the total payments received after investment gains. A Ponzi scheme by definition pays the current receivers with the inputs of the current payers. SS and Medicare have no funds, they are paid directly out of the payments from the current tax payers. Those people who paid into SS and Medicare years ago paid for other spending occurred decades ago, not insurance. By definition, SS and Medicare are a Ponzi scheme.

So you don't do anything that wasn't done before, but you do incur a large overhead penalty such that our total GDP is significantly less than it would be otherwise. Furthermore, you do it far worse than what was done before. I.e. families were far more compassionate than bureaucrats. So what exactly is your defense again for big government and waste?

Libertarians hate both or your big governments and are truly diametrically opposed to both parties. Very few libertarians propose an almost non-existent government, but to big government types like you it surely seems like it. I.e. it isn't non-existent, but rather is so vastly different to what we have today and what both Republicans and Democrats propose it seems like it.

I've had the extreme displeasure of reading Ayn Rand, enough libertarianism to last me a lifetime.

While you may have read a book, I have the extreme displeasure and calamity of living in your big government hell. You and all the other big government apologists are directly responsible for the mess we live in today. Congratulations for destroying liberty and everything else.

Claiming we have small, limited government or Capitalism is a joke of cosmic proportions.

[Yarddawg]

Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians...I'm fed up with whole lot! The Constitutional Party is looking better and better everyday.

[zephyp]

Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians...I'm fed up with whole lot! The Constitutional Party is looking better and better everyday.

[Taggure]

Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians...I'm fed up with whole lot! The Constitutional Party is looking better and better everyday.

Already ahead of you on that back in 2008

[davasmith]

Ya'll need to watch more Beck! He's been telling us this stuff for years, and yes I do watch Beck. Also, remember in all your remembering-- this country was not won or maintained by couch quarterbacks. Someone had to die, bleed,hurt and be called "traitor" for this great country to exist. As for the possible future of all affairs - simple-

He with the biggest guns wins. Sad but true! Besides we've been yelling at Washington for decades, and like it was already said, it's just opening a position for another butthead.

What would become of this country in that situation would be utter chaos, to the magnitude of a Vietnam. Only the rest of the world would sit back and laugh until the right opportunity came and then pounce.

Ever heard of the "top down, bottom up, inside out" theory? It's true, it's now. Check it out!

[gunderwood]

Ya'll need to watch more Beck! He's been telling us this stuff for years, and yes I do watch Beck. Also, remember in all your remembering-- this country was not won or maintained by couch quarterbacks. Someone had to die, bleed,hurt and be called "traitor" for this great country to exist. As for the possible future of all affairs - simple-

He with the biggest guns wins. Sad but true! Besides we've been yelling at Washington for decades, and like it was already said, it's just opening a position for another butthead.

What would become of this country in that situation would be utter chaos, to the magnitude of a Vietnam. Only the rest of the world would sit back and laugh until the right opportunity came and then pounce.

Ever heard of the "top down, bottom up, inside out" theory? It's true, it's now. Check it out!

Any time someone or a group of people get busted for something, say "militia" activity the first people duck and covering are gun owners. Ship our own out to dry before anything has been proven in a court of law...not that it matters too much because the ATF has a long history of lying to achieve their ends. Apparently we can't even armchair quarterback correctly either.

Seriously, talk is cheap...no one is going to "die, bleed,hurt and be called "traitor" for this great country to continue existing."

[arkypete]

The foundations of the decline of the US goes back to the Civil War, the decline of states rights.
Returning power to the states is the beginning of growth and stability. The federal government is the greatist threat to the once great couintry.

Jim

[Kreutz]

Seriously, talk is cheap...no one is going to "die, bleed,hurt and be called "traitor" for this great country to continue existing."

Truth.

"I fought for Goldman Sachs to hand out 15.3 billion in bonuses this year" doesn't make a great rallying cry.

Sometimes the kindest thing to do with something you love is let it die a natural death and move on.
People seem fixated on the idea of this country just collapsing, however empires generally take generations to slowly die. Sumeria, Babylonia, Rome, Byzantium, Ottomans; all took centuries of mismanagement, natural catastrophes, foreign entanglements and debt to be swept up in the dustbin of history.

Bottom line I really doubt even my grandchildren will be fending off mutant federal bureaucrat zombies with a shotgun.

[gunderwood]

Seriously, talk is cheap...no one is going to "die, bleed,hurt and be called "traitor" for this great country to continue existing."

Truth.

"I fought for Goldman Sachs to hand out 15.3 billion in bonuses this year" doesn't make a great rallying cry.

Sometimes the kindest thing to do with something you love is let it die a natural death and move on.
People seem fixated on the idea of this country just collapsing, however empires generally take generations to slowly die. Sumeria, Babylonia, Rome, Byzantium, Ottomans; all took centuries of mismanagement, natural catastrophes, foreign entanglements and debt to be swept up in the dustbin of history.

Bottom line I really doubt even my grandchildren will be fending off mutant federal bureaucrat zombies with a shotgun.

I hear you on the bonuses, but I wish they were a significant part of our problem. Honestly, while $15B here and there adds up, it is three orders of magnitude smaller than our problem. Millions, billions and trillions are hard for people to understand. It helps a little when you are use to dealing with numbers presented in scientific notation, but even then it is hard to really understand. To put it in perspective, three orders of magnitude is like:

1. Worrying about a 0.1V fluctuation on your 120V circuit. Most power supplies (say for your PC) deal with regularly deal with fluctuation 10-50x that and can handle, but run inefficiently at 100x. e.g. most UPS don't kick in until they see a swing of around 10V or one order of magnitude.

2. Worrying about a gas pump which spits out 0.01-0.02 gallons more or less that it is suppose to for a full fill up. According to NIST the actual variation allowed is 3x that.

3. In a 2000sqft home, worrying about a 1.4'x1.4' square (2sqft). Thats about how much space an average laptop takes up.

4. On an average handgun round worrying about 1fps total velocity spread; 2.5-3fps total spread on a high power rifle and 4fps on a very fast varmint rig. Total spread, so cut that in half for +- the average. I doubt anyone here has the ability to measure a rifle round to that kind of precision...or even to hand load that tight. The best chronos are 2-4x that spec.

5. The average income in the US worrying about $50 a year before taxes.

The budget deficit last year alone (2010) was $1.42T. The profits of all 500 of the Fortune 500 were only $391B (a return to average) in 2009. Thus, last year alone the government overspent, not spent, but overspent all of the profits of the largest 500 companies for 3.6 years. This year they are projected to spend another 3 years of that kind of profit in deficit alone. The federal government is spending the profits of the 500 largest companies for a decade in one year.

Just putting the problem in perspective.