AR15: Replacing upper with...good or bad?

[YuDanJa]

I bought my first AR15…an M&P15 MOE. Simple question: If I was to replace my upper assembly with a Del-Ton upper assembly (link below), would I be upgrading my AR, downgrading it, or neither (same quality)?

http://www.del-ton.com/ProductDetails.a ... 1&CartID=1

I read the specifications (Del-Ton and Smith & Wesson) and I can’t seem to find any risk of losing “quality” by using Del-Ton upper over the stock M&P15. Specs look about the same, but I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

I understand it is a Mid-Length (main reason for buying it). I'll probably buy a mid-length MOE handguard with it…and I want the flip up front sights. By the way, minus the Bolt Carrier Assembly and Charging handle (option).

Thanks

[grumpyMSG]

I believe you would be taking a step at least sideways, possibly slightly down.
I'd recommend looking at:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH- ... %20bfh.htm
or
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-M ... mid-16.htm
or
https://danieldefense.com/upper-receive ... g-xvm.html
I know the DD upper seems expensive, but there are complete DD rifles floating around for only $200 or so dollars more out there. I believe you could probably find the upper for far less than the list price.

As for the difference between hammer forged and non hammer forged barrels, the hammer forged are going to have a longer service life, so if you are going to shoot a thousand rounds a year or more, it might pay to have one, if not I wouldn't make it a "must have". I would be worried about the YHM collapsible front sight. it is retained to the barrel by 4 allen head bolts instead of tapered pins.

[grumpyMSG]

Here you go I found a much lower price DD for you:
http://www.smartgunner.com/DanielDefenseURG.aspx

[YuDanJa]

Thanks for the link, Grumpy.

Yah, spending the least money is my main objective. Basically, what I'm trying to do is 'convert' my current rifle into a Mid-Length with front flip up sights, and keep the clean look of the MOE handguard.

At first, I tried just purchasing a barrel, gas tube, handguard, cap, etc., and recycling parts from my existing rifle...but, adding up all parts needed costs almost as much as that entire DTI upper I found (or, is there a lot less involved?).

So...I figured for an extra few bucks, I'd get that entire upper assembly with the YHM sight, replace the handguard, re-use my bolt/carrier & charging handle, and attach it to my lower and I'm good to go...no gunsmithing involved. All that for $403, shipped at DTI. Looks like SmartGunner would cost me at least $100 more because I'd need to buy that YHM sight separately.

[gunderwood]

DD is some of the best, but you definitely pay for it. Personally I don't care for flip up front sights, but I like KISS. I run a fixed front sight with a T1. I prefer the midlength gas systems with 16" barrels. Definatly smoother, but I'm not sure it is worth the money just for that.

I agree with grumpy. Sideways or slightly down. I think the Bravo company is second to only the DD of the brands we have discussed. If this is a range toy it probably doesn't matter. In the unlikely situation where I need a SHTF AR, I'll grab my DDs and know I'm good to go.

[gunderwood]

The hammer forged is much better and will last longer, particularly if you do lots of rapid firing, but most ARs are range toys and it doesn't matter.

[YuDanJa]

Would you guys recommend the expensive, quality barrel... with gas tube, gas block / front sight, cap, and handguard approach? That's all it would take, correct?

[YuDanJa]

Would you guys recommend the expensive, quality barrel... with gas tube, gas block / front sight, cap, and handguard approach? That's all it would take, correct?

Nah, disregard my last comment...again, adding up all the parts I'd need goes up to $400...I may as well get the entire assembly GrumpyMSG suggested for that much.

[gunderwood]

Staying within your budget, find balance. I wouldn't recommend a highend part be mixed with lowend parts. Far better to use all midrange parts IMHO.

[YuDanJa]

Staying within your budget, find balance. I wouldn't recommend a highend part be mixed with lowend parts. Far better to use all midrange parts IMHO.

So, DTI upper is too low end for my M&P15 lower, and DD is too high? I'm new to AR's, and I think that's the difficulty I'm having.
Can you recommend a good midrange upper assembly?
I'd rather buy as minimum of parts as possible, but it seems all minimum required parts add up to a price for a complete upper.

[gunderwood]

Staying within your budget, find balance. I wouldn't recommend a highend part be mixed with lowend parts. Far better to use all midrange parts IMHO.

So, DTI upper is too low end for my M&P15 lower, and DD is too high? I'm new to AR's, and I think that's the difficulty I'm having.

I was referring more about a build. For example, I don't there is much point in worrying about a hammer forged barrel and spending the extra money to get one and then pair it with noname parts because you spent too much on the barrel.

There is a at least one thread where I posted a link which explained the various differences in AR quality. Too hard to find it and repost on a cell phone. Perhaps when I get home. IIRC, it was in an AR milspec thread.

Can you recommend a good midrange upper assembly?

I think the Bravo Company, which grumpy suggested, is a great midrange upper. IMHO, highend should be full milspec. You don't need it for a range toy and a lot of the "milspec" aspect is prooftesting and Magnetic Particle Inspection. IIRC, BC doesnt do all the steps, but makes a fine AR.

However, DD seems to have over expanded their manufacturing facilities and with the falling AR market (relative to the crazy period, not absolutely) you can find a DD or similar for not much more. I picked up two DD ARs for around $1150 each. There was a time those same ARs sold out quickly at $1500-$1700.

It would help a lot if you told us why you want to upgrade and what your budget is.

[YuDanJa]

It would help a lot if you told us why you want to upgrade and what your budget is.

Well, it’s not that I want to really “upgrade” my AR… I want to turn my carbine length into a Mid-length, basically, in the most budget (cheapest) way possible, and still keep the original “MOE edition” look by dropping in a mid-length MOE Hanguard.

As mentioned, I tried to buy minimal parts, but it ends up near the same price as a basic upper assembly, which is why I ended up posting “Is this DTI part good, bad, or same?”

Is it even necessary to replace the barrel to achieve this? For example, is it possible to 'slide everything forward' (replace my stock FSB) and get a longer gas tube for the mid-length MOE handguard to fit in place?

[gunderwood]

It would help a lot if you told us why you want to upgrade and what your budget is.

Well, it’s not that I want to really “upgrade” my AR… I want to turn my carbine length into a Mid-length, basically, in the most budget (cheapest) way possible, and still keep the original “MOE edition” look by dropping in a mid-length MOE Hanguard.

what length is your barrel? 14.5" with a fixed flash hider to bring it up to 16" or is it a 16"? The military uses the 14.5" and carbine length gas system. The midlength gas system is a civilian modification to fix the timing of the gas system due to the silly BATFE 16" barrel requirement. I surmise everyone would be shooting a 14.5" if the government wasn't restricting our rights. There is no reason to use a midlength gas system unless you are going for a 16-18" barrel. Above 18" or so you should use the rifle length and below 16" you should use the carbine until you need a pistol length gas system.

The various gas systems change the gas port location and sometimes the size. Thus, you can not convert a carbine barrel into a midlength barrel. The gas port is physically in a different location. I'm sure it could be done in a SHTF scenario...

The carbine gas system on a 14.5" barrel is known to break bolt lugs more often than a rifle. Extending the barrel to 16" and using the same carbine gas system makes the problem worse. Personally I prefer a 16" and a midlength gun, but I've owned all three.

Why are you so set on upgrading to a midlength gas system?

Unless you are breaking parts or are planning to suppress the gun (makes the problem a lot worse) I would probably recommend not changing out your upper. I'll help you either way, but I'm not sure the ROI is there in most cases.

Is it even necessary to replace the barrel to achieve this? For example, is it possible to 'slide everything forward' (replace my stock FSB) and get a longer gas tube for the mid-length MOE handguard to fit in place?

The barrel needs replaced and so does the gas tube and handguards. Possibly the extractor spring/oring and maybe the weighted recoil buffer in the lower. Timing is important for all semiautos. Even gas piston guns need adjustments. For example Springfield Armory had to design a custom gas system for the SOCOM M1As.

[gunderwood]

Here is the thread: http://vagunforum.net/post51249.html?hi ... pec#p51249

Here is the link I posted: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... utput=html

I'm not trying to scare you away from the project, but I don't want to recommend a mid-length upper or parts and then have you disappointed because behind the trigger there isn't much difference. There are good technical reasons to go mid-length, but only under certain circumstances.

If don't care and just want a mid-length anyways, I would look at Bravo Company, Rock River Arms, etc.

[YuDanJa]

I do appreciate all the information as well as the “scaring me away from the project”. I figured there’d be much more complications involved going with the minimal parts, so I thought just attaching a complete mid-length upper assembly would be the safest way to go. But then you mention things about possibly changing the extractor spring and the recoil buffer. I would have never thought of that. I thought one could simply attach any size upper assembly to any lower assembly and be good to go as long as the “commercial vs. milspec” is considered.

Anyway, there’s no real special reason for all this other than personal preference. I just want a longer handguard (MOE). I find this 6-7” carbine handguard small. And I don’t like how there’s an extra 8” of barrel sticking out after the A2 front sight post…seems like a waste. I know there are options like a floating quad rail to fill that void, but…guess I’m not ready for all that yet.

I’m thinking I’ll put this project aside for now. I stop to think if it’s worth it to spend $400 just to change my grip an inch or two.

Thanks for all the advice and help.

[gunderwood]

I do appreciate all the information as well as the “scaring me away from the project”. I figured there’d be much more complications involved going with the minimal parts, so I thought just attaching a complete mid-length upper assembly would be the safest way to go. But then you mention things about possibly changing the extractor spring and the recoil buffer. I would have never thought of that. I thought one could simply attach any size upper assembly to any lower assembly and be good to go as long as the “commercial vs. milspec” is considered.

You can just attach an upper and it should work. However, how reliable it is depends on what your lower is and how it was set up. They fit together just fine. However, they make several different buffers, etc. to get ARs to cycle correctly. Some guns may work just fine while swapping very different uppers, others may become single shots. Tweaking it may or may not be required. I don't know enough about your particular AR model to say one way or the other. I would ask an AR specific board about that model.

Anyway, there’s no real special reason for all this other than personal preference. I just want a longer handguard (MOE). I find this 6-7” carbine handguard small. And I don’t like how there’s an extra 8” of barrel sticking out after the A2 front sight post…seems like a waste. I know there are options like a floating quad rail to fill that void, but…guess I’m not ready for all that yet.

I’m thinking I’ll put this project aside for now. I stop to think if it’s worth it to spend $400 just to change my grip an inch or two.

Thanks for all the advice and help.

A longer rail is not a bad way to go. Have you see these (or similar)?
https://danieldefense.com/rail-systems/ ... rbine.html

Not cheap, but it is an upgrade that also gives you a much longer grip. Or you could save up and buy another rifle and then have two.

[grumpyMSG]

Don't be too scared about changing the upper. If a midlength is what you want, go for it. The worst you will have to do is buy a new buffer. The extractor problems are caused by the shorter gas system. One of that benefits of the mid-length is a longer sighting radius, which helps on accuracy at longer ranges, if you are going to use the iron sights. As for putting a free float rail system on your rifle. Free floating is nice, but do you really need the rails? Would one of the round tubes work for you? You like the MOE system, just hang what you need on it, the rest of it stays clean, I'd think about sticking with it. My one bit of advice is, if you are going to switch back and forth between the two uppers, spend the money on a bolt carrier and charging handle for both uppers. You don't want to be switching back and forth, I haven't mentioned it yet, but if the rifle has a bunch of rounds through it already, you should have the headspace checked between the old bolt and and new barrel.

For the fancy technical explanation: Switching from a carbine to midlength gas system helps by slowing down the cycling of the action. One of the problems the M4 has is a high cyclic rate (how fast it fires on burst or auto), and as the weapons get more rounds through them the gas port (hole in the barrel) erodes and gets bigger meaning more gas and an even faster cyclic rate. The original M16 design was supposed to fire about 750 rounds per minute on auto and a wore out M4 is capable of shooting over 1000. What that means in english is, the bolt is trying to remove the fired round before the pressure has dropped in the shell casing. That pressure is pushing the brass against the chamber wall and that is where the extraction problem comes from. The heavier buffers, the fat boy gas tubes and various extractor upgrades are all attempts to deal with the issue.

You never have stated the purpose or uses for the rifle, and it is really none of my business, but if you want advice on what to put, or not put on it, it would help to know it's role. So here are some common roles: Home Defense, Range Toy/ Plinker, Groundhog/ Coyote/ Varmint erradication, Competion Gun.

[gunderwood]

Don't be too scared about changing the upper. If a midlength is what you want, go for it. The worst you will have to do is buy a new buffer. The extractor problems are caused by the shorter gas system. One of that benefits of the mid-length is a longer sighting radius, which helps on accuracy at longer ranges, if you are going to use the iron sights. As for putting a free float rail system on your rifle. Free floating is nice, but do you really need the rails? Would one of the round tubes work for you? You like the MOE system, just hang what you need on it, the rest of it stays clean, I'd think about sticking with it. My one bit of advice is, if you are going to switch back and forth between the two uppers, spend the money on a bolt carrier and charging handle for both uppers. You don't want to be switching back and forth, I haven't mentioned it yet, but if the rifle has a bunch of rounds through it already, you should have the headspace checked between the old bolt and and new barrel.

For the fancy technical explanation: Switching from a carbine to midlength gas system helps by slowing down the cycling of the action. One of the problems the M4 has is a high cyclic rate (how fast it fires on burst or auto), and as the weapons get more rounds through them the gas port (hole in the barrel) erodes and gets bigger meaning more gas and an even faster cyclic rate. The original M16 design was supposed to fire about 750 rounds per minute on auto and a wore out M4 is capable of shooting over 1000. What that means in english is, the bolt is trying to remove the fired round before the pressure has dropped in the shell casing. That pressure is pushing the brass against the chamber wall and that is where the extraction problem comes from. The heavier buffers, the fat boy gas tubes and various extractor upgrades are all attempts to deal with the issue.

You never have stated the purpose or uses for the rifle, and it is really none of my business, but if you want advice on what to put, or not put on it, it would help to know it's role. So here are some common roles: Home Defense, Range Toy/ Plinker, Groundhog/ Coyote/ Varmint erradication, Competion Gun.

+1

I would note that going from carbine to mid-length shouldn't be an issue, but you never know what some manufacturer has done that isn't standard. E.g. too heavy of a spring/buffer would cause short stroking.

Edit: It's all part of the fun of tweaking the system and only is needed if you notice it isn't working just right.

[YuDanJa]

Thanks for the input. It was very helpful.
I could claim my rifle is for SHTF, home defense, etc, but in the end the reality of it all is…it’s a toy.
The MOE look was what attracted me to this rifle, initially (clean look…very Massada/ACR like). Being my first AR, I thought “Oh, here’s a complete rifle in one package for less than a grand…looks like I’m set!” After a while, I noticed that even shifting my grip forward on the handguard by merely an inch or two, I felt a difference in support/comfort/accuracy. That’s what sparked the desire for a mid-length.
But now…after countless hours on the web, I’m starting to find the floating quad rails with Magpul XT’s very attractive, and probably the most simple option to “extending” the handguard.
But with a floating rail, my concern is the gas block. I need to rid that front sight because it is exactly where I want to be gripping. So, I figure I need a low profile gas block for the floating rail to fit over. I read all over web that aftermarket gas blocks are “bad idea” because they might [something catastrophic]. Best solution seems to be to hacksaw/Dremel (chop off) the front sight post.
Anyway...gotta be careful. This new toy is dangerous...keeps you spending, non-stop!

[kanata67]

would the

WTS-AR-15 Match grade upper-NIB $550

Postby kamikaze

http://vagunforum.net/firearms-for-sale ... t6863.html
in the marketplace of this board be of use. You did say mid and "It is a 20" free floating heavy barrel, detachable carry handle, hooded rear sight shaved front tip.""brand new bushmaster competition A3 upper reciever"

just a thought,