Semi-Auto vs. Revolver for SD and Suvivalist Hunting

[gunderwood]

The latest VCDL alert had this article and I thought it would make a good discussion.

From lewrockwell.com: http://tinyurl.com/3yo9rqp

By James Wesley, Rawles
December 1, 2010

The .357 Magnum: An all around survival round

[SNIP]

As an avid reader of SurvivalBlog I know that most preppers like the .45 ACP round as their standard. That's a great choice and an excellent round. It has a long and solid history as a combat round. It falls short in the arena of woods carry and most don't consider it a hunting round. This report is not to compare the .45 to the .357 Magnum as it is an overdone conversation. Instead, I would like to outline the facts about the .357 Magnum and discus some of the misconceptions as well as the viability of this classic as an all around survival round for everything from personal protection to hunting and woods defense. This round is very sensitive to barrel length and has many bullet options. I would like to show how using a longer barrel maximizes the round and makes it very devastating. I would also like to give a little pick-me-up to the old wheel gun guys like me who only see in cylinders.

Incapacitating power is where many discussions on the .357 go bad early. The power of the .357 is grossly misunderstood and misrepresented. The .357 is commonly over- and under-reported on power. There are a few factors that have to be considered when discussing power, they are: Bullet weight, Velocity, and Bullet diameter. One of my favorite tools to use when studying this subject is the Energy, Momentum, and Taylor KO (TKO) Calculator. This is a very cool tool to have bookmarked on your computer. Another tool that is very good is the charts made by four gentlemen who sat down with a couple of chronographs, 8,500 rounds of ammo, some Thompson Center single shot pistols. They began shooting, recording and progressively shortening their barrels by an inch at a time, and then compiling the data. Their data can be found at the Ballistics By The Inch web page. The power of the .357 is greatly affected by barrel length. The .357 seems to hit its prime at 6". Any shorter and a lot of power is lost any longer and you are toting a gun unnecessarily to big. If you look at the charts made by the gentlemen at Ballistics by the Inch you will see that the difference between a 2" barrel and a 6" barrel is upward of 700 ft/sec of velocity. If you use this info and plug it into the calculator you will see that your values skyrocket as the barrel length increases. Using the data on a Corbon 125 grain JHP a 2" barrel yields an energy of 226 ft/lbs, momentum of 16, and a TKO of 5. Now you plug in the data from the same round out of a 6" barrel and you get an energy of 816 ft/lbs, momentum of 30, and a TKO of 10. This is huge in comparison. I have plugged in several of my favorite .357 woods carry loads and have gotten similar results each time.

To give a rough comparison most 240 grain .44 Magnum factory loads have an energy of approx. 800 ft/lbs. Now I am not comparing the two rounds in total, I am just saying that the energy reaches .44 magnum ranges when a 6" barrel is used. Now most guys who pack a .357 for woods carry opt for a 4" gun and most say "Ah, there isn't much difference between a 4" and 6" gun", but I say nay. Using the same info here is the 4" plugged in to the calculator. Energy 621 ft/lbs, momentum is 26, and TKO is a 9. Now many say this isn't much but it really is. Another rough comparison would be like saying a full power 10mm isn't much different than a 40 S&W. Tell that to a car door with a bad guy on the other side. When developing a round most ammo manufacturers use a 6"-to-8" barrel to do their ballistics testing. There is a reason for this and it becomes very apparent in the numbers.

The .357 Magnum carries the honor of being #1 with one shot stops of two-legged threats. The bullet in this statistic is the 125 grain hollowpoint. That is a great choice for two-leggers but for those that live in areas dominated by four-legged threats a bigger bullet is better. In this example I am going to use the Double Tap 200 grain WFNGC load. Out of a 6" gun the load moves at 1,305 ft/sec. When plugged in to the calculator we get energy of 756 ft/lbs, momentum of 37, and a TKO of 13. This makes the .357 a good choice for hunting and woods carry in the lower 48 and some would argue Alaska as well but we wont have that argument here. Caliber arguments are long and never really get far, but, if you look at the data certain things fly off the page. The .357 shines in the data when you have a heavier bullet and a longer barrel. Other calibers do better when the barrel length is shorter, but for a one gun option, the .357 has great potential. As a good example the 10mm and .357 are compared quite often, when the bullet weight is 200 grain (for instance) and a standard Glock 20 is compared to a 6" .357 the .357 most often wins the numbers game hands down. As the .357 barrel length is shortened, the 10mm starts to shine. A 6" .357 blows the .45 ACP out of the water (using a M1911 with a 5" barrel), and quickly starts heading toward .44 Magnum numbers. (But it does not, however, get there).

As the author notes, .357 shines in 6-8" barrels, but its versatility as a hunting round just isn't there in the common carry/SHTF guns. Couldn't you just as easily carry a 1911/Glock/XD and a .460Rowland (or similar caliber conversion concept) for hunting? Either way you have to carry SD and hunting ammo. Is hunting with a handgun or SD the more likely scenario? Certainly, SD has the most risk. Wouldn't those two things argue for erroring on the side of SD than hunting? I.e. optimize for SD and have handgun hunting be the specialized case which swapping out a barrel for is not an issue. Also, in a pinch most of those semi-auto hunting conversions can shoot either the SD or the hunting round out of the hunting barrel. I.e. .460rowland feeds .45ACP just fine and will shoot either, although it is obviously better to use your .45ACP barrel for SD. Just because it works doesn't mean it is optimal. A semi-auto can also be converted to a .22lr, which has lots of value as a small game hunting round.

I'm biased towards semis and I do like revolvers, but they are heavy and slow (for most people) compared to a good SD/carry semi-auto.

Thoughts?

[Palladin]

Bwahahahahah! Nice try!



I am not ready, Sensei.

[WRW]

When each shot counts and close encounters with game are not guaranteed, I'd rather use a rifle. For self defense, I'd rather have something that could be fired with one hand. I think this guy is overthinking this.

[gunderwood]

When each shot counts and close encounters with game are not guaranteed, I'd rather use a rifle. For self defense, I'd rather have something that could be fired with one hand. I think this guy is overthinking this.

Certainly I'd rather use a rifle for game hunting. However, a .357Mag is not hard to shoot one handed IMHO.

[WRW]

When each shot counts and close encounters with game are not guaranteed, I'd rather use a rifle. For self defense, I'd rather have something that could be fired with one hand. I think this guy is overthinking this.

Certainly I'd rather use a rifle for game hunting. However, a .357Mag is not hard to shoot one handed IMHO.

As usual, I've confused the issue by not going to the proper lengths to clarify. I don't think the .357 Mag is hard to shoot one handed. The purpose of the article seemed to me to be that the .357 Mag (with 6" barrel) would make a good one gun plan (hunting, self defense, and animal attack) in a SHTF scenario. Am I wrong?

[CCFan]

It's certainly interesting... in survivalist hunting/self defense/SHTF scenario, I'm content carrying my 10mm... 8+1 vs 6 rounds is certainly one advantage... quickly popping in another 8 rounds is nice, too... I'd feel quite good against any predators, 2-legged or wild in this part of the country. Also makes a good deer caliber... As for the .22lr conversion kits - I've never seriously considered one, but this post made me check out the Marvel .22 conversion kits (fits all calibers of 1911's) so it's certainly something I'll consider going forward.

The one thing this post did make me do was re-think the LCR .357 I've been looking at...such a short barrel on that thing...

[gunderwood]

The one thing this post did make me do was re-think the LCR .357 I've been looking at...such a short barrel on that thing...

IMHO and as the linked post suggests, a short barrel can't take advantage of all that powder capacity. I wouldn't rule it out, but I do think .38Sp is more suited to such small revolvers than .357Mag. On the bright side, if it can shoot .357Mag safely it will have no problems with .38Sp.

When each shot counts and close encounters with game are not guaranteed, I'd rather use a rifle. For self defense, I'd rather have something that could be fired with one hand. I think this guy is overthinking this.

Certainly I'd rather use a rifle for game hunting. However, a .357Mag is not hard to shoot one handed IMHO.

As usual, I've confused the issue by not going to the proper lengths to clarify. I don't think the .357 Mag is hard to shoot one handed. The purpose of the article seemed to me to be that the .357 Mag (with 6" barrel) would make a good one gun plan (hunting, self defense, and animal attack) in a SHTF scenario. Am I wrong?

No, you are correct. I think I read your post differently than you intended. There seems to be some room for ambiguity.

[CowboyT]

Some prefer semi-autos. Others tend to prefer wheelguns. Turns out I fall into the latter category, though I do also enjoy semi-autos. Really, any good gun is cool.

If I had to pick *one* gun as an all-around purpose gun, it would be a 4" .357 Magnum revolver. The chief functional reason for me is the versatility of loads that I can use or make in such a gun. As a handloader, I can make a powder-puff .38 Spl round for marksmanship practice at the range, and then follow it up with a nice, hot 150gr .357M load for whatever other purpose. That kind of load versatility is hard to get in a semi-auto due to the action of the slide.

I know, the article makes very clear that the 6" barrel will give you better velocity. That's probably true. But "one" gun is by its nature a compromise. I'd say the 4" barrel is a decent compromise.

Fortunately, we're not limited to just "one" gun in this country. We are free to have as many as we want. In other countries, that isn't true.

[WRW]

Some prefer semi-autos. Others tend to prefer wheelguns. Turns out I fall into the latter category, though I do also enjoy semi-autos. Really, any good gun is cool.

If I had to pick *one* gun as an all-around purpose gun, it would be a 4" .357 Magnum revolver. The chief functional reason for me is the versatility of loads that I can use or make in such a gun. As a handloader, I can make a powder-puff .38 Spl round for marksmanship practice at the range, and then follow it up with a nice, hot 150gr .357M load for whatever other purpose. That kind of load versatility is hard to get in a semi-auto due to the action of the slide.

I know, the article makes very clear that the 6" barrel will give you better velocity. That's probably true. But "one" gun is by its nature a compromise. I'd say the 4" barrel is a decent compromise.

Fortunately, we're not limited to just "one" gun in this country. We are free to have as many as we want. In other countries, that isn't true.

OK, if you did have to pick one gun...would you use a scope for hunting?

[gunderwood]

Some prefer semi-autos. Others tend to prefer wheelguns. Turns out I fall into the latter category, though I do also enjoy semi-autos. Really, any good gun is cool.

If I had to pick *one* gun as an all-around purpose gun, it would be a 4" .357 Magnum revolver. The chief functional reason for me is the versatility of loads that I can use or make in such a gun. As a handloader, I can make a powder-puff .38 Spl round for marksmanship practice at the range, and then follow it up with a nice, hot 150gr .357M load for whatever other purpose. That kind of load versatility is hard to get in a semi-auto due to the action of the slide.

I know, the article makes very clear that the 6" barrel will give you better velocity. That's probably true. But "one" gun is by its nature a compromise. I'd say the 4" barrel is a decent compromise.

Fortunately, we're not limited to just "one" gun in this country. We are free to have as many as we want. In other countries, that isn't true.

OK, if you did have to pick one gun...would you use a scope for hunting?

Just to make it more plausible, while you have a lot of guns today, during a SHTF situation you likely will need to arm people you can trust (family, close neighbors, church members, etc.). Of course you have to train them too, but the more people, whom you can trust, that you arm and train the better off you likely will be for defensive action. However, if things continue to degrade--guns get lost and people die during firefights, ammo drys up for less common calibers, etc.--you may only have one gun. What is the one gun you keep for yourself?

[Palladin]

Some prefer semi-autos. Others tend to prefer wheelguns. Turns out I fall into the latter category, though I do also enjoy semi-autos. Really, any good gun is cool.

If I had to pick *one* gun as an all-around purpose gun, it would be a 4" .357 Magnum revolver. The chief functional reason for me is the versatility of loads that I can use or make in such a gun. As a handloader, I can make a powder-puff .38 Spl round for marksmanship practice at the range, and then follow it up with a nice, hot 150gr .357M load for whatever other purpose. That kind of load versatility is hard to get in a semi-auto due to the action of the slide.

I know, the article makes very clear that the 6" barrel will give you better velocity. That's probably true. But "one" gun is by its nature a compromise. I'd say the 4" barrel is a decent compromise.

Fortunately, we're not limited to just "one" gun in this country. We are free to have as many as we want. In other countries, that isn't true.

OK, if you did have to pick one gun...would you use a scope for hunting?

Just to make it more plausible, while you have a lot of guns today, during a SHTF situation you likely will need to arm people you can trust (family, close neighbors, church members, etc.). Of course you have to train them too, but the more people, whom you can trust, that you arm and train the better off you likely will be for defensive action. However, if things continue to degrade--guns get lost and people die during firefights, ammo drys up for less common calibers, etc.--you may only have one gun. What is the one gun you keep for yourself?

That's why I initially backed off of this one - just how bad did the SHTF? Reloading for the gun in question or not? The lowly 22LR will still be around long after we are all gone, and with good reason. The very fact that one gun doesn't best suit all situations explains why we have so many choices today.

If I had access to primers and powder, I would be quite comfortable with the .357 wheelgun in a one gun only situation. I would tailor my loads to what I anticipated dispatching...

However, I would be spending my nights at the forge practicing my Hershel House skills.

[SgtBill]

Some prefer semi-autos. Others tend to prefer wheelguns. Turns out I fall into the latter category, though I do also enjoy semi-autos. Really, any good gun is cool.

If I had to pick *one* gun as an all-around purpose gun, it would be a 4" .357 Magnum revolver. The chief functional reason for me is the versatility of loads that I can use or make in such a gun. As a handloader, I can make a powder-puff .38 Spl round for marksmanship practice at the range, and then follow it up with a nice, hot 150gr .357M load for whatever other purpose. That kind of load versatility is hard to get in a semi-auto due to the action of the slide.

I know, the article makes very clear that the 6" barrel will give you better velocity. That's probably true. But "one" gun is by its nature a compromise. I'd say the 4" barrel is a decent compromise.

Fortunately, we're not limited to just "one" gun in this country. We are free to have as many as we want. In other countries, that isn't true.

Plus -1
Me and my Smith & Wesson 4" Model 686 .357 Magnum and my hand loads. But I will keep my .40 cal. Glock handy with the Crimson Trace Laser and plenty of hand loaded ammo.
Bill

[WRW]

@gunderwood: That's why I asked about the scope. You realize that the increased hunting pressure would make longer range shots a necessity. Would you have a scope on your pistol?

As for losing firearms in firefights...I'd rather think we'd be picking 'em up instead of laying 'em down, but you never know...

What one gun would I keep for myself? A rifle. Period. Anyone wanting to relieve me of my load, or decrease the surplus population, would likely snipe from cover and if I survived that first shot I'd at least want something that could deliver reasonably accurate cover fire.

[Taggure]

No question about it; I want my .06 Rifle with the scope on it if I only had one to choose from as I am most comfortable with it

A pistol would be nice for a backup though!

I also like the .357 Magnum and I still kick myself for trading the old Ruger Black Hawk .357 Magnum that I had. You could only carry 5 rounds safely in it as it was before they made the modification to them, but what a Sweet shooting gun

[WRW]

My apologies. I keep getting distracted and detract from the intended topic. .44 magnum or .45 Colt with a 6" barrel and I would have a scope.

[Drewsifer]

I could see saying a .357 revolver/lever gun combo being great for SHTF cause you can share the rounds, but just a revolver? Eh, I'd just as soon carry a pistol and rifle.

[zephyp]

Just to make it more plausible, while you have a lot of guns today, during a SHTF situation you likely will need to arm people you can trust (family, close neighbors, church members, etc.). Of course you have to train them too, but the more people, whom you can trust, that you arm and train the better off you likely will be for defensive action. However, if things continue to degrade--guns get lost and people die during firefights, ammo drys up for less common calibers, etc.--you may only have one gun. What is the one gun you keep for yourself?

And one of the primary reasons I keep a couple extra in the safe with mags and ammo. Every one of us living in built up areas should be thinking this way. Who can you recruit to build a local "defense force"...

[gunderwood]

Just to make it more plausible, while you have a lot of guns today, during a SHTF situation you likely will need to arm people you can trust (family, close neighbors, church members, etc.). Of course you have to train them too, but the more people, whom you can trust, that you arm and train the better off you likely will be for defensive action. However, if things continue to degrade--guns get lost and people die during firefights, ammo drys up for less common calibers, etc.--you may only have one gun. What is the one gun you keep for yourself?

And one of the primary reasons I keep a couple extra in the safe with mags and ammo. Every one of us living in built up areas should be thinking this way. Who can you recruit to build a local "defense force"...

The Zephyp Millitia Defense Force sounds like a bunch of extremists...

[NickW]

That kind of load versatility is hard to get in a semi-auto due to the action of the slide.

Well, if you take a good look at the 10mm Auto I think you would have to agree that it's power matches-up well with the .357. 10mm is handloaders dream round IMO.

[wally626]

Depends on what the SHTF situation is really. A 6-inch revolver .357 mag or 44 mag is a good hunting side arm and ok for self defense as well, but if you are facing just societal collapse hunting is not going to last long. Lots of people have guns and are going to clear out any game animals within a very short period of time and I think self defense would be of more importance. If you are talking about the death of a high percent of the population and you have to survive in primitive but uncrowded conditions then a hunting weapons makes more sense. In either case you would be better off with rifle, but if just limited to a handgun, assuming a large stockpile of ammo, I would go with a 10mm. Smaller stockpile a .45 ACP or 9mm.