ATF ruling on pistol grip shotguns

[Jim]

ATF now says that pistol grip shotguns are not shotguns, but destructive devices.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-n ... new-danger

[Reverenddel]

WOW! Just effin' WOW!

The ATFE must be REEEEAALLLLLY BORED! Because, I dunno, after 40+years of selling these in multiple variations they suddenly come to this realization?

How about this? How about we FOLD the BATFE into another division that is swamped, and needs some help, and stop SCREWING WITH THE AMERICAN PUBLIC?!?

You think that would be okay? That'd be a'ight?

[gunderwood]

ATF now says that pistol grip shotguns are not shotguns, but destructive devices.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-n ... new-danger

Hmm, seems those DOJ lawyers are interpreting tax policy again...

[Jim]

The ATF is the American version of the German S/S. Nothing suits them better than being legally able to kick in doors and arrest people for no apparent reason other than said "suspects" are a danger to society.

[Sotiris]

So does this cover "Pistol Grip Only" shotguns(Mossberg JIC), "Pistol Grip + stock" shotguns(Benelli M4's), or both?

[allingeneral]

So does this cover "Pistol Grip Only" shotguns(Mossberg JIC), "Pistol Grip + stock" shotguns(Benelli M4's), or both?

I'd have to say that the answer to your question is - it's legal as long as there's a butt-stock and it's not "Pistol grip only".

Either way - this is a ridiculous ruling. And to take it a bit further - I'm tired of the BATFE making "Rulings". They are completely superseding the legislative process and sending out what amount to press releases (but they don't get the coverage that many press releases do). So, what they are effectively doing is creating binding laws outside the legislative process, then holding people accountable for those laws and ruining peoples lives over them.

So, now we have this ruling and the previous ruling about Airsoft guns, which they immediately rescinded...how much of this crap do we put up with? Does it just keep going until my life or yours is ruined and we're dragged through the federal court system over a "ruling" that was made by BATFE that we were never made aware of?

Have you heard about the ruling that you can no longer legally own tritium sights due to their radioactive nature? Well - there's not really any such ruling, but think about the implications of such a ruling and how many of us would be subject to FEDERAL IMPRISONMENT when we are caught in violation of a "Ruling" made by BATFE, which has no actual basis in law.

[gunderwood]

Either way - this is a ridiculous ruling. And to take it a bit further - I'm tired of the BATFE making "Rulings". They are completely superseding the legislative process and sending out what amount to press releases (but they don't get the coverage that many press releases do). So, what they are effectively doing is creating binding laws outside the legislative process, then holding people accountable for those laws and ruining peoples lives over them.

So, now we have this ruling and the previous ruling about Airsoft guns, which they immediately rescinded...how much of this crap do we put up with? Does it just keep going until my life or yours is ruined and we're dragged through the federal court system over a "ruling" that was made by BATFE that we were never made aware of?

Welcome to what is left of the American republic. There are bureaucracy's creating administrative law all day long. EPA CO2 is another example.

[Sotiris]

Either way - this is a ridiculous ruling. And to take it a bit further - I'm tired of the BATFE making "Rulings". They are completely superseding the legislative process and sending out what amount to press releases (but they don't get the coverage that many press releases do). So, what they are effectively doing is creating binding laws outside the legislative process, then holding people accountable for those laws and ruining peoples lives over them.

/signed

It's made worse as there is no real way for them to be held accountable. They have the power to just show up at your doorstep and ensure that you have a real bad day.

That's what's stopped me from the thoughts of getting my own FFL.

[zephyp]

Either way - this is a ridiculous ruling. And to take it a bit further - I'm tired of the BATFE making "Rulings". They are completely superseding the legislative process and sending out what amount to press releases (but they don't get the coverage that many press releases do). So, what they are effectively doing is creating binding laws outside the legislative process, then holding people accountable for those laws and ruining peoples lives over them.

So, now we have this ruling and the previous ruling about Airsoft guns, which they immediately rescinded...how much of this crap do we put up with? Does it just keep going until my life or yours is ruined and we're dragged through the federal court system over a "ruling" that was made by BATFE that we were never made aware of?

Welcome to what is left of the American republic. There are bureaucracy's creating administrative law all day long. EPA CO2 is another example.

EPA is a different animal. Congress is all of their infinite wisdom set up EPA so they could make "regulations" that carry the same power as law. I'm not sure if the BATFE has that same "authority" or not...

[gunderwood]

Either way - this is a ridiculous ruling. And to take it a bit further - I'm tired of the BATFE making "Rulings". They are completely superseding the legislative process and sending out what amount to press releases (but they don't get the coverage that many press releases do). So, what they are effectively doing is creating binding laws outside the legislative process, then holding people accountable for those laws and ruining peoples lives over them.

So, now we have this ruling and the previous ruling about Airsoft guns, which they immediately rescinded...how much of this crap do we put up with? Does it just keep going until my life or yours is ruined and we're dragged through the federal court system over a "ruling" that was made by BATFE that we were never made aware of?

Welcome to what is left of the American republic. There are bureaucracy's creating administrative law all day long. EPA CO2 is another example.

EPA is a different animal. Congress is all of their infinite wisdom set up EPA so they could make "regulations" that carry the same power as law. I'm not sure if the BATFE has that same "authority" or not...

Last time I checked the Constitution said only Congress could make laws and I don't recall any power being given to them to delegate that power to anyone else.

[Jakeiscrazy]

This is really weird. You would there would be a little more mention other then a newsletter considering how many are sold every year.

[Diomed]

ATF now says that pistol grip shotguns are not shotguns, but destructive devices.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-n ... new-danger

Reading comprehension fail.

This is David Codrea and Mike Vanderboegh hypothesizing that maybe possibly PGO shotguns could be reclassified as DDs, in reference to a clarification for FFLs that PGO shotguns should be treated as firearms and not shotguns (i.e. no transfers to under-twenty-ones). No such reclassification has been made.

Try to keep the hysteria in check.

[allingeneral]

ATF now says that pistol grip shotguns are not shotguns, but destructive devices.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-n ... new-danger

Reading comprehension fail.

This is David Codrea and Mike Vanderboegh hypothesizing that maybe possibly PGO shotguns could be reclassified as DDs, in reference to a clarification for FFLs that PGO shotguns should be treated as firearms and not shotguns (i.e. no transfers to under-twenty-ones). No such reclassification has been made.

Try to keep the hysteria in check.

Interesting. The ruling is written quite poorly, and I suppose my reading comprehension in this case might be a bit limited...but I see where this ruling could be used by an over-enthusiastic field agent to cause undue harm to the lives (and possibly livelihoods) of legal firearm owners across the country.

[gunderwood]

ATF now says that pistol grip shotguns are not shotguns, but destructive devices.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-n ... new-danger

Reading comprehension fail.

This is David Codrea and Mike Vanderboegh hypothesizing that maybe possibly PGO shotguns could be reclassified as DDs, in reference to a clarification for FFLs that PGO shotguns should be treated as firearms and not shotguns (i.e. no transfers to under-twenty-ones). No such reclassification has been made.

Try to keep the hysteria in check.

Interesting. The ruling is written quite poorly, and I suppose my reading comprehension in this case might be a bit limited...but I see where this ruling could be used by an over-enthusiastic field agent to cause undue harm to the lives (and possibly livelihoods) of legal firearm owners across the country.

You are correct that over-zealous LE can use anything to cause you a bad day. Lots of people like Diomed only care if they can be convicted for something, I personally prefer to avoid the hassle and defense costs entirely. Furthermore, I dislike anything that can be used in such an unlawful manner.

[zephyp]

EPA is a different animal. Congress is all of their infinite wisdom set up EPA so they could make "regulations" that carry the same power as law. I'm not sure if the BATFE has that same "authority" or not...

Last time I checked the Constitution said only Congress could make laws and I don't recall any power being given to them to delegate that power to anyone else.

Gee whiz...go cry to congress then...they do unconstitutional crap all the time. I dont like it any more than you but what do you propose we do...put dog turds under their pillows?

[gunderwood]

EPA is a different animal. Congress is all of their infinite wisdom set up EPA so they could make "regulations" that carry the same power as law. I'm not sure if the BATFE has that same "authority" or not...

Last time I checked the Constitution said only Congress could make laws and I don't recall any power being given to them to delegate that power to anyone else.

Gee whiz...go cry to congress then...they do unconstitutional crap all the time. I dont like it any more than you but what do you propose we do...put dog turds under their pillows?

I think Taggure started a thread about this not long ago (how do we return as a country or something like that). Seemed to split between we already crossed the event horizon and we are almost there...not many practical suggestions though. Pushing states rights *might* work. I.e. arrest your treasonous representatives when they return on break.

Ya, I know...when hell freezes over.

[zephyp]

Indeed, the event horizon has been crossed...I hope your range card has a final protection line on it...where's Wylde0007...

[OakRidgeStars]

...where's Wylde0007...

He's out on a secret mission with Gecko45. But don't tell him I told you

[zephyp]

...where's Wylde0007...

He's out on a secret mission with Gecko45. But don't tell him I told you

Ah, perhaps they are out at their daily practice session of shooting 400 rounds.....

[GS78]

Either way - this is a ridiculous ruling. And to take it a bit further - I'm tired of the BATFE making "Rulings". They are completely superseding the legislative process and sending out what amount to press releases (but they don't get the coverage that many press releases do). So, what they are effectively doing is creating binding laws outside the legislative process, then holding people accountable for those laws and ruining peoples lives over them.

/signed

It's made worse as there is no real way for them to be held accountable. They have the power to just show up at your doorstep and ensure that you have a real bad day.

That's what's stopped me from the thoughts of getting my own FFL.

This is the kind of crap that has stopped me from buying any firearms from anyone who has an FFL.