VCU Health System power grab

[Runcible]

In Richmond, VCU Health System has banned smoking on public sidewalks and streets in the vicinity of its campus. If you are smoking outdoors but near VCU Medical Center, you will be ticketed by VCU Police if caught.

There's an article on this in Style Weekly: http://styleweekly.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?s ... F6A24E281A

I asked in the comments where VCU Health System was legally empowered to enforce its policies on public streets owned by the City of Richmond. The writer responded that it's Virginia Code 23-50.16:10, a section of the law that created and governs VCU Health System as a public authority:

A. The Authority is empowered to adopt and enforce reasonable rules and regulations governing access to, conduct in or on, and use of its property and facilities and surrounding streets, sidewalks and other public areas, and governing other matters affecting the safety and security of Authority property and of those using or occupying Authority property. Such rules and regulations shall have the force and effect of law (i) after publication one time in full in a newspaper of general circulation in the city or county where the affected property is located and (ii) when posted where the public using such property may conveniently see them.

B. The campus police department of Virginia Commonwealth University, established in accordance with the provisions of Chapter 17 (§ 23-232 et seq.) of this title, may enforce on Authority property the laws of the Commonwealth and rules and regulations adopted pursuant to subsection A of this section. To the extent that such police services are not provided by the University, the Authority is authorized to establish a police department in accordance with the provisions of Chapter 17 of this title, except that the employment of such personnel by the Authority shall not be subject to the Virginia Personnel Act (§ 2.2-2900 et seq.). (1996, cc. 905, 1046.)

I'm posting this here because the police power is already being abused by 'public health' authoritarians, and I expect it's only a matter of time before it's abused to the detriment of people lawfully carrying firearms.

[Tweaker]

Way too late, son. That ship has left port.

VCU has had a cutout in the Virginia code that permits them to ban firearms on campus already. The hospital is part of their empire. You cannot carry guns there now, and I am certain you will learn this if you OC and the wrong JBT Kampus Kop sees you.

Ask me how I know? I was the reason for 5 cars worth and 8 Keystone KVNTZ who came running at the UVA medical center. My crime? I was openly carrying both my 3 year old daughter and an H+K .40 Compact. I was told repeated how I am in violation of their "policy." I stated that I am NOT in violation of a law and did not budge. Cue disarmament and trespass threats.

UVA has no special code that permits this "rule." VCU does.

Summary of situation: VCU has not had to face a legal challenge to their pre-pre-emption code entry that the VA legislature passed for them in which they have the authority to ban firearms.

[Runcible]

I think you missed the point of my post; my fault for not spelling it out. I'm very familiar with VCU's rules about guns on campus. The point of this story is that VCU - the VCU Health System, at least - is now treating public streets and sidewalks as part of its campus.

As near as I know, VCU Police have never asserted that the VCU gun ban extends to any of the streets or sidewalks around VCU - e.g. I can walk down the sidewalk on Franklin Street with a concealed handgun and so long as I don't enter the actual campus or actual buildings, I'm in compliance with the law. But now that the VCU Health System is applying its rules about smoking to public areas outside its actual property, and with the force of law, it seems likely to me that they'll soon make the same case for banning firearms.

[zephyp]

Fairfax Inova is the same way...the first thing you see upon driving onto the campus is a big no smoking anywhere sign...the next thing you see are the no gun signs everywhere...

[Tweaker]

Ok. I would fully expect also, should I take a walk thru campus at UVA that I will receive "attention" from the local dipsh!ts even if I never set foot on their precious "lawn."

Tyranny, once set loose, knows no bounds and spreads like an STD at a lollapollooza concert weekend.

[Jakeiscrazy]

Wow I didn't know about all their legal cut outs. How stupid is that eh? Thanks for the info.

[ProShooter]

Way too late, son. That ship has left port.

VCU has had a cutout in the Virginia code that permits them to ban firearms on campus already. The hospital is part of their empire. You cannot carry guns there now, and I am certain you will learn this if you OC and the wrong JBT Kampus Kop sees you.

But remember, that rule only applies to members of the University community.

[Runcible]

Way too late, son. That ship has left port.

VCU has had a cutout in the Virginia code that permits them to ban firearms on campus already. The hospital is part of their empire. You cannot carry guns there now, and I am certain you will learn this if you OC and the wrong JBT Kampus Kop sees you.

But remember, that rule only applies to members of the University community.

As I'm know you're aware because I took your CHP class, VCU does not take the position that the rule applies only to members of the university community and anyone reported on the campus with a firearm is subject to arrest.

[ProShooter]

Way too late, son. That ship has left port.

VCU has had a cutout in the Virginia code that permits them to ban firearms on campus already. The hospital is part of their empire. You cannot carry guns there now, and I am certain you will learn this if you OC and the wrong JBT Kampus Kop sees you.

But remember, that rule only applies to members of the University community.

As I'm know you're aware because I took your CHP class, VCU does not take the position that the rule applies only to members of the university community and anyone reported on the campus with a firearm is subject to arrest.

VCU can take any position they want, I suppose. We'll never know for sure until someone gets arrested and fights it. The statute is clearly written, IMHO, to only include "members of the University community". Now, I couldn't find a definition for that phrase in the Code of Virginia, but there are some other common examples from elsewhere:

University of Florida, and the Florida Administrative Code 6C1-4.040(3)(i) -

(i) "Members of the University community" shall be defined as University officials, faculty and other employees, students, and, in connection with their participation, other individuals and entities that participate in any University activity or program.

University of Pennsylvania, Relationships Between Members of the University Community and Intelligence
(Source: University Council Resolution, January 19, 1979 and Offices of the President and Organizations Provost, 1979 Handbook for Faculty and Administration)

II. Definition of Terms as Used in This Section

University community: The set of individuals who are employed by, or who participate in the educational and other activities of, the University, at times when they are, or may reasonably be thought by others to be, acting in their capacity as employees or participating in such activities.


I'm not a lawyer, but its hard to look at these examples and consider anyone who is not a student, teacher or University employee to be a "member of the University community".

[Runcible]

I'm not a lawyer, but its hard to look at these examples and consider anyone who is not a student, teacher or University employee to be a "member of the University community".

I've read the law, too. It's a bit vague on who it affects, but VCU clearly has the power to decide who among that affected group can carry guns on its campus. Somebody might get arrested and then have the charges dropped, but forever after the employment application question "Have you ever been arrested?" will be problematic.

I don't challenge VCU on its policy. I don't enter campus with a firearm; if I'm attending an event there I leave the gun at home or in the car. What I'm concerned about here is that VCU is enforcing its smoking policies in the neighborhood around the downtown medical campus; people who have nothing to do with VCU and are not on VCU property can be fined by VCU Police for smoking a cigarette on a sidewalk owned by the City of Richmond. If VCU takes the same approach with its firearms ban, large sections of downtown Richmond will become off-limits to firearms without any of us ever having a vote.

[ProShooter]

I'm not a lawyer, but its hard to look at these examples and consider anyone who is not a student, teacher or University employee to be a "member of the University community".

I've read the law, too. It's a bit vague on who it affects, but VCU clearly has the power to decide who among that affected group can carry guns on its campus. Somebody might get arrested and then have the charges dropped, but forever after the employment application question "Have you ever been arrested?" will be problematic.

I don't challenge VCU on its policy. I don't enter campus with a firearm; if I'm attending an event there I leave the gun at home or in the car. What I'm concerned about here is that VCU is enforcing its smoking policies in the neighborhood around the downtown medical campus; people who have nothing to do with VCU and are not on VCU property can be fined by VCU Police for smoking a cigarette on a sidewalk owned by the City of Richmond. If VCU takes the same approach with its firearms ban, large sections of downtown Richmond will become off-limits to firearms without any of us ever having a vote.

I agree that the smoking thing is ridiculous and if we give them that, they may try on push the firearms issue on non-affected parties. Its clearly something that needs to be more clearly defined.