in c'ville wednesday...get visited by the marines

[cigarmanva]

Marines Prepare to Descend Upon Charlottesville for Training
A fleet of helicopters will descend on Charlottesville this week, as the Marines plan on doing training exercises in the area. In preparation, Marines will go door to door at homes and businesses on Wednesday, warning people about the training exercise.
June 7, 2010

Marines will be training in Charlottesville shortly. You'll know when they're here.

A fleet of helicopters will descend on the area later this week. The Marines have been doing landing exercises in Fluvanna County.

Around this time every year, Marines use a remote area near the Bremo Bluff Dominion Power Plant for landing exercises, but this year, Marines' training will be in a less remote place.

Capt. Richard Ulsh and the 26th Marine Expeditionary unit are ready to deploy to the Middle East this fall. First, they're trekking from their fort two hours away to a site in Charlottesville.

"Certainly, we could go to Camp Lejeune [in North Carolina] and go on all the ranges we've seen several times," Ulsh said. "Out there, they have not seen this terrain. They have not seen all the different objectives we may have locked on for them. It makes it a little more realistic."

In preparation, Marines will go door to door at homes and businesses on Wednesday, warning people about the training exercise. The same choppers that fly over Afghanistan, the Ospreys, will likely fly over town.

"They're going to see some increased Marine Corps traffic -- aircraft, vehicles -- and in a few days, they may even hear some blank firing," Ulsh said.

Ulsh warns that people should stay at least 200 yards away from helicopters, but they're invited to watch.

People in Fluvanna County have seen Marines do helicopter landings in Bremo Bluff near the power plant over the weekend. For this week's raid, Ulsh said he can't say exactly where the training will be since the Marines need to be surprised, but he did say it's an abandoned building.

The Marines will begin their canvassing in the Charlottesville area on Wednesday. Charlottesville and Albemarle County police and city leaders, in addition to nearby businesses, are aware of the Marine training exercises.

For additional questions about the training, call 1-888-418-0473.

maybe i'm being paranoid but this smells a little fishy to me

[gunderwood]

They have done this sort of thing before. The problem is AFAIK they tend to go a little further than that article lets on. They are essentially practising taking control of a civilian area. They set up road stops, etc. I don't know if this particular training exercise will go that far, but the are practising for military control of a civilian population, which we commonly call Martial Law.

I don't have to tell you what I think of it...use the search function and look for a thread about bugging out and martial law.

Edit: Google it and you will see this sort of thing is trained in small towns all the time.

[cigarmanva]

They have done this sort of thing before. The problem is AFAIK they tend to go a little further than that article lets on. They are essentially practising taking control of a civilian area. They set up road stops, etc. I don't know if this particular training exercise will go that far, but the are practising for military control of a civilian population, which we commonly call Martial Law.

I don't have to tell you what I think of it...use the search function and look for a thread about bugging out and martial law.

Edit: Google it and you will see this sort of thing is trained in small towns all the time.

this is kinda what my spidey sense told me...sounds like a good day to OC

[wylde007]

Sounds like a good day to OC an AR.

[grumpyMSG]

They did something similar in Richmond a couple of years ago. My recommendation is if you come upon a Marine traffic control point "LISTEN TO THE MARINES", I can't wait to here some knucklehead entered the training area and their car was damaged by a grenade simulator or even better, the get dragged out of the car in the training are, only to be flexcuffed for a while, by Marines who thought they were "OpFor/Human Training Aids".
I would recommend you wear your just in case...

[gunderwood]

They did something similar in Richmond a couple of years ago. My recommendation is if you come upon a Marine traffic control point "LISTEN TO THE MARINES", I can't wait to here some knucklehead entered the training area and their car was damaged by a grenade simulator or even better, the get dragged out of the car in the training are, only to be flexcuffed for a while, by Marines who thought they were "OpFor/Human Training Aids".
I would recommend you wear your just in case...

I'm not recommending you go mess with them or anything. I simply was asking where in the Constitution of the United States do they find the authority for any branch of the military to perform intrusive operations in civilian areas inside the US for any reason? Training or not, the US military should not be sectioning off parts of US cities and towns, setting up check points, door to door "interviews," etc. How far they go varies. Small towns sometimes are practically under martial law.

Even though it is training, try to go about your normal business and ignore them and you will find out just how real the training is.

[zephyp]

They did something similar in Richmond a couple of years ago. My recommendation is if you come upon a Marine traffic control point "LISTEN TO THE MARINES", I can't wait to here some knucklehead entered the training area and their car was damaged by a grenade simulator or even better, the get dragged out of the car in the training are, only to be flexcuffed for a while, by Marines who thought they were "OpFor/Human Training Aids".
I would recommend you wear your just in case...

I'm not recommending you go mess with them or anything. I simply was asking where in the Constitution of the United States do they find the authority for any branch of the military to perform intrusive operations in civilian areas inside the US for any reason? Training or not, the US military should not be sectioning off parts of US cities and towns, setting up check points, door to door "interviews," etc. How far they go varies. Small towns sometimes are practically under martial law.

Even though it is training, try to go about your normal business and ignore them and you will find out just how real the training is.

Exactly...even though they are "training" they are still on duty and have no doubt been fully briefed about real threats from you,me, and grandma. The real interesting exercises are where they convince locals to allow them to into their homes to look for "illegal" firearms...

[gunderwood]

Exactly...even though they are "training" they are still on duty and have no doubt been fully briefed about real threats from you,me, and grandma. The real interesting exercises are where they convince locals to allow them to into their homes to look for "illegal" firearms...

Like I said, in the past, the intrusiveness of the training has varied from shrug to .

[novasig226r]

Exactly...even though they are "training" they are still on duty and have no doubt been fully briefed about real threats from you,me, and grandma. The real interesting exercises are where they convince locals to allow them to into their homes to look for "illegal" firearms...

Like I said, in the past, the intrusiveness of the training has varied from shrug to .

On the one hand we all love our men and women in the armed forces. On the other we get paranoid when they "invade". I doubt the Marines will be storming private residences or businesses searching for guns. I also doubt they'll be packing real ammunition. Every bit of training I did in the Army (off-range) was with blanks, sometimes wearing that horrid MILES gear. On the sole occasion I got to participate in training outside the base (in the real world), the residents were all in on the gig and many volunteered to be a part of the exercise. Robin Sage, great fun.

I'd rather they train here than get OJT in theater.

[BluemontGlock]

Yea, put me with Wylde on this one,
and the bottom line it just stirkes me as wrong...as you could do this training in country in a "real" envirnment that looks, smells, tastes, and, feels the same with heat and language barriers and barking dogs and thier bogger hook right next to the trigger guard on a loaded M16...

OC the AR, and CC a back up piece. with the in you back pocket...
Never can be to prepared...

[Mindflayer]

I grew up a military brat and watched REFORGER exercises, exercises off-base for the reasons defined, and so forth. They put the Marines into a situation where they have not trained so they don't get complacent. Having civilians around is sometimes used to illustrate the dangers of operating where a stray shot can cause massive political damage. Sometimes the civilians take an active part and it can be fun for both.

When they get overseas, it will be in unknown territory where that one mistake can set off a riot or lead to very bad political press. I would rather our men and women train here, train hard, and be safe.

If you want to put on the , ask why the French forces in Côte d'Ivoire could do absolutely heinous things and the worldwide press said nothing, but when we have an unfortunate side casualty in Afghanistan, the press gloms onto us as if we're barbarians?

[ksanftleben]

Robin Sage, great fun.

Not always. Anyone remember this?

AP Monday, February 25, 2002

RALEIGH, N.C. — A rural roadway became the scene of a deadly confrontation when a deputy sheriff mistakenly opened fire on two plain-clothed Army soldiers out on a training exercise, officials said.

Deputy Sheriff Randall Butler killed one soldier and wounded another during a traffic stop when the soldiers apparently tried to disarm him after assuming he was taking part in their exercise, officials said.

A release from the Army said the shooting "resulted from an unfortunate case of mistaken identity and a breakdown of communications between the individuals involved.''

The soldiers were taking part Saturday in a role-playing exercise that is part of the Army's Special Forces Qualification Course.

While the Moore County Sheriff's Office was told a training exercise was under way, Special Operations spokesman Maj. Gary Kolb said the Army did not coordinate specifically with the sheriff's office and Butler was likely unaware of it.

"In this instance, they were not informed about this, because the scenario itself was not intended to draw attention of the local authorities,'' Kolb said.

No charges had been filed Sunday. Butler was placed on administrative leave with pay.

Kolb said the soldier's identities would not be released until relatives were notified. The wounded soldier was listed in serious condition at FirstHealth Moore Regional Hospital in Pinehurst.

Kolb said the soldiers were carrying a disassembled M-4 carbine rifle in a bag when their vehicle was pulled over by Butler. It was unclear why the deputy pulled over their car.

"Both of the soldiers were dressed in civilian clothes and riding in a civilian vehicle with no indication of being in the military,'' a statement from the Moore County Sheriff's Office said. "At the time of the incident the deputy believed that the two individuals intended on killing him.''

Messages left at the sheriff's department were not returned Sunday. In its release, the department said Butler was "totally unaware'' of the exercise.

"One of the soldiers attempted to disarm the officer as the other was attempting to get a military weapon that the soldiers had in their possession,'' the sheriff's release said.

The two soldiers were participating in a reconnaissance mission in which they were to locate a target to be used in a future mission, Kolb said. Butler stopped the vehicle on a rural road near Robbins, about 25 miles from Fort Bragg.

They were in a vehicle driven by a civilian who was playing the role of a resident of a fictitious country, Kolb said. He wouldn't discuss further details of the incident because it was being investigated by the State Bureau of Investigation and the Army.

The training exercise, known as "Robin Sage,'' is the 19-day final exam of the Special Forces Qualification Course. It tests skills in survival, tactics and dealing with people, as well as judgment, decision-making and ethics.

Robin Sage has been conducted in central North Carolina since the mid-1950s without incident, according to a release from the Army's John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School.

The Tampa Tribune identified the injured soldier as Sgt. Stephen Phelps, a former resident of Clearwater, Fla. His family learned about the shooting Saturday night when the sergeant's wife, Suzanne, called his mother.

"It's upset me bad,'' Phelps' grandmother Ann Wells told the newspaper on Sunday. "I've just about stopped crying now. He's my angel.''

R/Kurt

[gunderwood]

Exactly...even though they are "training" they are still on duty and have no doubt been fully briefed about real threats from you,me, and grandma. The real interesting exercises are where they convince locals to allow them to into their homes to look for "illegal" firearms...

Like I said, in the past, the intrusiveness of the training has varied from shrug to .

On the one hand we all love our men and women in the armed forces. On the other we get paranoid when they "invade". I doubt the Marines will be storming private residences or businesses searching for guns. I also doubt they'll be packing real ammunition. Every bit of training I did in the Army (off-range) was with blanks, sometimes wearing that horrid MILES gear. On the sole occasion I got to participate in training outside the base (in the real world), the residents were all in on the gig and many volunteered to be a part of the exercise. Robin Sage, great fun.

I'd rather they train here than get OJT in theater.

This is what we call a false duality. There are not just two options, train here illegally or get OJT in theater (which implies that to not support this will cost troops their lives). Alternatively, love the troops or wear tinfoil hats. There are in fact many legal choices that the US military can use to train realistically here in the United States. The founding fathers had enough reservations about a standing army, let alone to have it take over American cities for training.

[gunderwood]

Robin Sage, great fun.

Not always. Anyone remember this?

Exactly. Doing this in civilian areas is an uncontrolled environment, which will lead to accidents. You can recreate this, and we do, with paid actors where things are controlled much better.

[grumpyMSG]

OC the AR, and CC a back up piece. with the in you back pocket...
Never can be to prepared...

Sage advice gentlemen, do you want to be dragged into this exercise??? you want to OC an AR which, depending on the furniture looks just like a member of the M4/M16 family of weapons. So you want to look like you are part of the exercise?

With the assault from within the Army's ranks at Fort Hood, the plotting for an attempt at Fort Dix in New Jersey a few years ago and the two "Jihadists", who were just arrested, do you think it is wise to place yourself, a Marine and others around you at risk?

In preparation, Marines will go door to door at homes and businesses on Wednesday, warning people about the training exercise. The same choppers that fly over Afghanistan, the Ospreys, will likely fly over town.

"They're going to see some increased Marine Corps traffic -- aircraft, vehicles -- and in a few days, they may even hear some blank firing," Ulsh said.

Ulsh warns that people should stay at least 200 yards away from helicopters, but they're invited to watch.

The Marines will begin their canvassing in the Charlottesville area on Wednesday. Charlottesville and Albemarle County police and city leaders, in addition to nearby businesses, are aware of the Marine training exercises.

They are doing everything to let the public know what to expect and to avoid conflict with the public, yet have a good training exercise. I can't imagine what you would have thought 20 years ago when the Virginia Army National Guard was out in the National Forests for training three or four times a year. One common location was in the Lake Sherando area and the trucks would drive by Shenandoah Acres Resort several times a day.

As for the constitutionality of conducting an exercise on private property, I would like to know exactly what makes an exercise of this type unconstitutional? As long as the property owner consents, or in this case the article says the building is "abandoned" and is probably (by my guess) more accurately described as vacant and probably rented for the exercise. The property hasn't been seized solely for the purpose of this exercise.

[gunderwood]

grumpy, it depends on the kind of exercise they are planning. Like I said, some of the exercises are so what, some are WTF?

There have been some training exercises where they all but declared martial law in small towns like the 26th expeditionary unit did in Indiana. They didn't just train on private property, but set up road blocks and actively questioned and detained civilians going about their business. They took over the towns and patrolled them like they were Iraq. That kind of military operation in a civilian area is unconstitutional. Yes, they have been working hard to reinterpret and remove all road blocks for declaring martial law.

Training on private property, who cares. Force on force training in National Forests, who cares. Training with actors in MOUT facilities, who cares. If the Marines are going to block Rt29, stop citizens, ask them questions, patrol the streets, go door to door interviewing citizens about certain activities, etc. I have a real problem with that.

Don't you?

Edit: How exactly would they be dragged into the training exercise by OC in down town Charlottesville if the Marines are only training in an abandoned building which is private property? OC would only cause them a problem if the Marines were going to take over part of the city, arrest/detain/control those inside the perimeter or those who get to close. Which is it? Are they training around Charlottesville on private property (who cares) and are just alerting everyone for the extra noise/activity? Or at they taking over the city?

[cigarmanva]

OC the AR, and CC a back up piece. with the in you back pocket...
Never can be to prepared...

Sage advice gentlemen, do you want to be dragged into this exercise??? you want to OC an AR which, depending on the furniture looks just like a member of the M4/M16 family of weapons. So you want to look like you are part of the exercise?

With the assault from within the Army's ranks at Fort Hood, the plotting for an attempt at Fort Dix in New Jersey a few years ago and the two "Jihadists", who were just arrested, do you think it is wise to place yourself, a Marine and others around you at risk?

funny, last i checked the military doesn't have any police powers over the citizens....i find it extremely annoying that I am going to be confined to my house (because I don't want to mistakenly be involved in their reindeer games) and then have military members come and bother me

[gunderwood]

OC the AR, and CC a back up piece. with the in you back pocket...
Never can be to prepared...

Sage advice gentlemen, do you want to be dragged into this exercise??? you want to OC an AR which, depending on the furniture looks just like a member of the M4/M16 family of weapons. So you want to look like you are part of the exercise?

With the assault from within the Army's ranks at Fort Hood, the plotting for an attempt at Fort Dix in New Jersey a few years ago and the two "Jihadists", who were just arrested, do you think it is wise to place yourself, a Marine and others around you at risk?

funny, last i checked the military doesn't have any police powers over the citizens....i find it extremely annoying that I am going to be confined to my house (because I don't want to mistakenly be involved in their reindeer games) and then have military members come and bother me

Are they going to do that? I don't know what they are going to do. I'm just saying I have a problem if they step over that boundary.

All they have to do is declare they are helping the local LEA fight drugs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_C ... encies_Act
Even that may not be needed as the Federal government has decided that unless Posse Comatose specifically names the branch/command, it doesn't apply to them. Thus, things like JSOC are exempt...so they claim.

[cigarmanva]

Are they going to do that? I don't know what they are going to do. I'm just saying I have a problem if they step over that boundary.

All they have to do is declare they are helping the local LEA fight drugs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_C ... encies_Act
Even that may not be needed as the Federal government has decided that unless Posse Comatose specifically names the branch/command, it doesn't apply to them. Thus, things like JSOC are exempt...so they claim.

From the article:
In preparation, Marines will go door to door at homes and businesses on Wednesday, warning people about the training exercise.



yeah they're gona come by and bother me...just like the religious idiots who come knock on my door.

[firstcavapache64]

It sounds like they are trying to prepare everyone in the area for what they are doing so it disrupts people as little as possible. People would likely freak when they saw this kind of activity in the area thinking it was in response to a threat and perhaps make poor decisions or bother the hell out of the local police with calls. Let's wait until this is over before everyone get all pissed off and claims this is against the constitution. We don't even know what exactly they have planned. I am all for these troops getting the best training they can. It would be best if it could be done on base away from so many cry baby civilians who don't quite appreciate what these guys are heading into, but if it means a little bother for me as I head to Sams Club or Wal Mart then I can deal with it. I don't agree with what was done in the story Gunderwood posted where they were harassing civilians in any way and that is BS. The chain of command and the local government should have been hammered for something like that. I don't foresee that happening here and if it does I am sure they would not like the local response very much. All I am saying is lets be patient enough to see what happens before we start declaring anything unconstitutional, inconvenient or martial law. We owe the troops as much help as we can give them and no that doesn't mean we allow them to declare martial law, just maybe put up with some noise, door knocks and news stories.