Trust

[rugdoc]

Anyone ever start a NFA Trust? I am thinking about setting one up to get some cool stuff. Anybody know the details in Virginia?

[herohog]

Welcome to the Group! Are you a VCDL member yet? Look into them. If you are a gun owner in VA, these guys are your best friend!

Sorry but I can't help ya with this one but I am sure there is someone here who can.

[BlueTiki]

Sorry, I'm new to shooting and the things that go along with it. Can some one please enlighten me as to what the NFA trust is? I did a Google search and am not sure what I was looking at?

[OakRidgeStars]

I had to search Google, but I found this interesting article.

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2008/10/nfa-trust.html

[BlueTiki]

Ok, so if I understood it correctly, its basically a form that needs to be filled out and approved by the Feds for you to own things like a full auto or silenced pistol.

As long as we are on a subject as this, I would like to know one more thing for now. What is the difference in a suppressor and a silencer? Do you still need to have an NFA trust for a suppressor?

[Sweetpea]

From what I've heard a suppressor is the correct term for a silencer.

[OakRidgeStars]

The concept of a NFA Trust is nothing more than a gun-rights savvy lawyer providing a service to gun owners. That service consists of providing the gun owner access to lawyer before, during and after the purchase or transfer of a Class III weapon. It's no different than consulting a lawyer before buying a house or writing a will. They will use their legal knowledge to keep you out of trouble with BATFE.

[CCFan]

Here's my quick understanding of this -

You don't have to have a trust to own machine guns, suppressors, etc. - you need a dealer authorized to sell the items, you have to apply through the ATF, local law enforcement has to sign off, you go through a more extensive background check, and pay the $200 tax for Title II weapons... The National Firearms Act (http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/nfa.htm) governs this - the advantage of a trust is that local law enforcement doesn't have to sign off on the transfer (in some states), and any members of the trust (think trust funds, estate trusts, etc) are lawfully entitled to have these items in their possession (i.e. a wife wouldn't be in violation of the law when her husband went to work and forgot to lock up a restricted item if they were both members of the trust). That being said - I think only a lawyer familiar with filing this type of paperwork would be able to give the details specific to Virginia.... Keep us posted on the progress!

[rugdoc]

Ok, I have completed my trust(used Quicken Willmaker) and it has been looked over by one of the corporate lawers on my floor. Its good to go with no modification! I will post more info tomarrow, but now I have to get back to my AR build.... Trust is the way to go!!

[rugdoc]

Here are some links to sites that helped me with the Trust

First one:
http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-6017.html

And this one is the BEST LINK if you are thinking about using a Trust

http://www.86th.org/?id=nfa-trust

I used a one dollar bill to start my trust.

This way is so easy, fast, and cheap! God Bless America!!!

[SgtBill]

Ok, so if I understood it correctly, its basically a form that needs to be filled out and approved by the Feds for you to own things like a full auto or silenced pistol.

As long as we are on a subject as this, I would like to know one more thing for now. What is the difference in a suppressor and a silencer? Do you still need to have an NFA trust for a suppressor?

There is no such thing as a silencer. There are sionics and suppressors that will in fact make a weapon make less noise then normal but it or they will not silence them. Even the little 22 cal.long rifle breaks the sound barrier and can not be silenced, you just wont hear a bang when fired. And you can't silence the slide working during recoil.
Bill

[BlueTiki]

I follow you on this Bill. I was at the range not to long ago and saw someone with a nice set up that was suppressed. It was fun to watch. Only real sound was the action of the moving parts and the clinking brass.

[40shooter]

Takle a look at this.
http://redirectingat.com/?id=593X1004&u ... %3Drelated

[SR712]

Yeah, I know... old thread! I am interested in adding a supressor to my firearms collection. Has anyone gotten the Chief of Police here in Virginia Beach to sign off on an NFA? If not, then have you gone the NFA Trust route? I would love to, but I can't seem to get myself to ante up $600 for a lawyer to do this for me. I'm not sure if I trust (pun?) Quicken to do this either. Does anyone here in VA have any thoughts or personal experience about this? or used any lawyers local to here? Thanks.

[gunderwood]

You need a revocable living trust.

The idea is that the purchaser(s) of the NFA item turn all of their controlling interest in the item over to the revocable living trust before the item is transferred. The NFA item is transferred to the trust, not the individual who paid for it or the trustees. The trust now "owns" the NFA item.

There are several advantages to this method of owning a NFA item. First, the trustees can change and there can be more than one. Technically, as I understand it (IANAL), if you transfer a NFA item into your personal name, you must keep it locked up when ever you are not at home if there is someone else who co-dwells and is over 18. They can not have access to the NFA item; can't know the code or have a key. E.g. your wife can not legally possess the NFA item if it is in your name, but you leave for work. Who technically possess the NFA item if it isn't locked up? I don't know of anyone who has been prosecuted for this "transfer" and there are some lawyers who disagree with this interpretation, but others agree. Some lawyers will even tell you technically, I can't let you shoot an NFA item, even when I am present, because to do so you are taking possession of it. Most disagree with that, but...

Second, you don't have to get the police chief signature, which in some places is impossible to get (interesting note is that this requirement was added in 1968 to keep blacks from owning NFA items). Last, you don't have to do the background check for some things. You are trading paperwork for ease of control. Generally, those who create the trust and turn over their ownership are designated as the trustees. This way any of them can possess the NFA item in their duties as a trustee.

You are turning over all of your information (and the trusts), so it isn't like the BATFE doesn't know who is getting the stuff. There is no "loophole." If you create one, only put NFA items in it. Do not mix other property in it as that creates a headache and potential legal concerns if/as the NFA changes.

It isn't hard to do. In VA, all you have to do is have the paperwork notarized. No registration with the state government is needed. Even when you move, it is still a valid VA trust. Some dealers will actually help you set one up as it is generic paperwork except a few things. One dealer who will is Major Malfunction. If you want a suppressor and buy it from him, the trust is free (http://www.major-malfunction.com/). Great prices too.

[SR712]

Thanks for the reply, gunderwood. I pretty much knew most of that... I was looking for more of an answer from the local community here in SE VA. ie. about this specific CLEO, and lawyers specific to this area.

Also, thanks for the link to those prices. They look pretty good.

[gunderwood]

Thanks for the reply, gunderwood. I pretty much knew most of that... I was looking for more of an answer from the local community here in SE VA. ie. about this specific CLEO, and lawyers specific to this area.

Also, thanks for the link to those prices. They look pretty good.

You don't need a lawyer to do it. In fact, it is very simple and everyone follows the same template. The only thing a lawyer gives you that you can't easily do yourself is answers to questions. Literally, everyone just fills in the blanks for a VA revocable living trust. Couple of names, an address, property/serial number and your done. I haven't seen that many, but there doesn't seem to be any difference between the lawyer prepared and self prepared. Often the "NFA lawyer" won't even meet with you. Instead you send them the info and they mail you papers to sign. Most of the dealers who will set you up with a trust when you buy something all had lawyers draw up the templates any ways. The BATFE has lawyers who check it to make sure the trust is valid and they will reject the transfer if it isn't. Hiring a lawyer gives you a warm fuzzy, but that depends how good your lawyer is. In the end, it is still your butt on the line.

Just buy from a dealer who will do it for free for the first item. After that all you have to do it sign another piece of paper giving your "ownership" of the next item to the trust before you transfer it and update the Schedule A. Very simple. The property transfer update is change the dates and change one line that lists the item. All you do is add another line to the Schedule A. Literally a Schedule A update is:

1. First item...manufacturer, brand, model, caliber, serial
2. Second item...manufacturer, brand, model, caliber, serial (add this line and your done)

[Diomed]

According to the list on arfcom (which is usually pretty accurate), you can get a signoff in Virginia Beach. It's the way to go if you can.

Trusts are a growing issue inside ATF. If you decide to use one, it's a really good idea to have a competent attorney draft it for you. Yes, there's usually a basic template that's used, but you have to make sure it's the right one. Lots of people swipe templates off the interwebs and try to use them. Guess what? They don't work, because they're not valid for whatever state the attempted transferee is in, and people being lazy and/or stupid, they don't bother trying to make them correct. Most trusts are getting sent over to the legal section for review now, thanks to the idiots.

[totes6]

I guess it comes down to, do you want to spend a couple hundred dollars now on an attorney or a few thousand on the same guy when the BATF decide to come knocking?

[gunderwood]

I guess it comes down to, do you want to spend a couple hundred dollars now on an attorney or a few thousand on the same guy when the BATF decide to come knocking?

Why would they come knocking? This is the BATFE we are talking about...

Edit: Bottom line is if the BATFE wants to get you, you're toast. Doesn't matter what lawyer drafted it up or if you followed the instructions on their website/forms to a T. Don't forget the law is what the BATFE says it is, they can change it on a whim.