Plane crash may have been on purpose

[zephyp]

First of all, I do not condone criminal acts and for purposes of this hypothetical discussion I leave defining "criminal acts" up to you after you read the rest of my post.

I will give you a small hint - criminal acts defined legally are those acts which break a law.

Having said that, consider the Revolutionary War. King George lay claim to the 13 colonies and imposed laws over the colonists as royal subjects. The response: revolutionaries rebelled against the king's policies and incited the war. Right or wrong morally, ethically, or legally the colonists started the Boston Massacre by "harassing" the British troops quartered there. After that, colonists seceded from King George's rule, formed their own "laws" and fought against British troops at Concorde which officially started the Revolutionary war.

So, can we accuse the colonists of committing criminal acts because they broke the King's law? Did they commit criminal acts when they incited revolution against England. Were they labeled crazy? Nuts? Extremists?

Think about it.

Where would we be if a group of crazy nuts failed to respond to an extremist's call to arms as he rode a horse through a small town over 200 years ago...how many so called colonists were against "breaking" the King's law...

Historians have estimated that approximately 40–45% of the colonists actively supported the rebellion while 15–20% of the population of the thirteen colonies remained loyal to the British Crown. The remaining 35–45% attempted to remain neutral. [wikipedia]

Once again, I'm not condoning this guy's action. I'm merely pointing out a little history. Call me nuts, call me crazy, call me an extremist - but history speaks for itself...

[Palladin]

The questions are - are WE still "the people"? Does our government function as "WE" intend?
Do "WE" still have the power to change our government through lawful legislative channels when it ceases to function appropriately?

And the answer to your question becomes clearer when the answers to my questions are an emphatic NO!

[BluemontGlock]

i do not condone what he did, in any shape or form, but wholly understand why he did it...

and if he cared enough to cast his final vote, it is, in my opinion, worth taking note...

My fear is that as the frustration level rises, we will see more open acts of homegrown discontent... it gives the average gov't worker a new sense of what the war fighter is going through when you are a target in your gov't office downtown...but truth is, it is not these folks fault, they are just going to work... it is THe POTUS and the COTUS and the financial oversight committees who are responsible...

the familes of the folks hurt in this act are the losers... soemhow he left that out of his equation....

Sad situation all around....as if we cannot find enough common ground to stand united, we will fall divided...i hope we all love our "kids" more than we hate each other...

carry on...

[GS78]

You are not actually saying that people who work for the IRS deserve to be killed are you? REALLY?

The huge emotional, non-thinking response to 9-11 is how we got the Patriot Act, etc.

You fail to mention though , that the "emotional,non-thinking response to 9-11" was implemented by Government officials, not the public. My point is that emotion had little to do with the Patriot act, opportunity did.

[zephyp]

You are not actually saying that people who work for the IRS deserve to be killed are you? REALLY?

The huge emotional, non-thinking response to 9-11 is how we got the Patriot Act, etc.

You fail to mention though , that the "emotional,non-thinking response to 9-11" was implemented by Government officials, not the public. My point is that emotion had little to do with the Patriot act, opportunity did.

You nailed that one...and I'm convinced its alive and well today. Opportunity is certainly a primary factor motivating political decisions. Hence, emanuel the ballerina's comment - never let a crisis go to waste...

[GS78]

speaking of ballerinas', how was the show?

[zephyp]

It was pretty funny. For a complete run down read my last post (bottom of the page) at the link below...I am still kicking myself for not getting a picture of Young's "final performance" but the image will be forever burned in my mind...

http://vagunforum.net/general-discussio ... t3714.html

[zephyp]

While I dont normally post anything directly from infowars this one is definitely interesting and is most definitely an occasion to don the tin-foil for some. It raises some very interesting points that can easily be verified elsewhere...

http://www.infowars.com/i-dont-buy-the- ... joe-stack/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I Don’t Buy the Official Story of Joe Stack

Wake Up 1776
February 19, 2010

I think the ”official story” is fishy. Folks who buy in to ”official stories” hook, line, and sinker as fed to them by the mainstream media (which includes Fox) will no doubt have no problem accepting what they are hearing regarding this latest incident.

However, just like 9/11 (which many refuse to look in to thanks to Glenn Beck and others who completely ostricize and mock those asking legitimate questions of the government) the ‘official story’ doesn’t mesh. I understand that if one turns a blind eye to the very real and troubling questions of 9/11, they will certainly turn a blind eye to this more minor incident. Likewise, unanswered questions remain concerning the Christmas day underwear bomber. We now know the government knowingly allowed the underwear bomber to board that plane. When one looks in to all the facts surrounding these sort of incidents, you have to conclude that our government is withholding information from the American people. The question remains, why? And it seems they have an agenda that these ”crises” help them implement.

Here are those troubling questions regarding the Austin plane incident:

1. Incredible amount of damage is peculiar for planes of a similar size. A similar sized plane hit a high rise in St. Pete, FL in 2002. Here’s the damage that plane did:

crashed-1.jpg (16.67 KiB) Viewed 2086 times

Yet Joe Stacks plane did this:

fireaustin.jpg (27.9 KiB) Viewed 2087 times

2. The lack of causalities (of which we are thankful) leaves one scratching their head. Only two people were injured, and reports today say 1 additional body was found. It was 10AM on a Thursday. Where were all the 200-some employees? Look at the destruction this caused. It defies common sense that there were not mass casualties.

3. Eyewitness said a fire engine and hazmat was present before the plane hit. (Not arrived quickly, but was present — how convenient.)

4. The media knew immediately who was responsible and had immediate access to his supposed suicide/manifesto.Yet when real terrorists attacks or real acts of violence occur, we wait for law enforcement officials to hold press conferences. The media waits and gathers the facts on the ground. There is no rush to judgment. The fact that Shep Smith on Fox (as well as AP and Reuters) and the others in the media were already releasing snippets of this man’s supposed diatribe makes me wonder. How long did it take us to learn the motivating factor of the Ft Hood shooter? It usually takes Google a good 2-4 hours to index a blog and maybe 24-48 hours to index a low-content site. So how did the media find his name so quickly? How did they know to search for Joe Stack? His body didn’t get discovered until later afternoon. Did someone recognize him in the cock-pit before he crashed? I would also remind everyone that we are a nation of laws and people are innocent until proven guilty. And in this case, Joe Stack was “crucified” by the media (including Fox) before the case was investigated. The media is acting on recklessness and emotion.

5. All those who knew Joe Stack say they never saw this in him. One man, who knew him for 6 years, said he was even apolitical. Reports from those who knew him say he was fun-loving, happy, and loved his family.

Right on cue the mainstream media is already asking if this ”right wing anti-government extremism” in on the rise and part of a growing trend.

Next, look for yet further ‘’security measures” to be implemented. Subjecting more and more innocent Americans to their unlawful and degrading searches. We are resembling a police state more and more. I was just thinking if they will put body scanners in schools. Bet that will be soon.

[zephyp]

And today a very interesting story in the leftist LA Times. Do they focus on the crash? No. Do they speak of the carnage of the injuries of the deaths...NO. They focus solely on paying your taxes. Looks like someone from the IRS wrote the article. Very very very interesting...and yes indeed another reason for -- you got it ---

Pay close attention to the last 3-4 paragraphs of the article...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 7889.story

---------------------------

Man who crashed plane into Austin IRS building part of decades-long line of tax protesters

February 20, 2010 | 7:29 a.m.

WASHINGTON (AP) — Joseph Stack's methods were unthinkable — he is accused of ramming a plane into an Internal Revenue Service building in Texas — but his views on taxation follow a long line of protesters who believe tax laws don't apply to them.

While their numbers aren't large, according to experts, their arguments are so enticing that the IRS has published a guide to debunk their claims. In 2008, the Justice Department was concerned enough to start the "National Tax Defier Initiative" to better coordinate prosecutions.

"You would think a little light bulb would go on in their head and they would say, 'Why in the heck is everybody else paying taxes?'" said Peter R. Zeidenberg, a former federal prosecutor who is now a litigation partner at the law firm DLA Piper in Washington. "There are people who are peddling this stuff. It's a way to get people to believe something that's too good to be true."

A 3,000-word manifesto posted on a Web site registered in Stack's name rails against the IRS and accuses the agency of ruining his life. Stack's bitter feud with the IRS apparently drove him to commit suicide Thursday by slamming his single-engine Piper PA-28 into an Austin office building where the IRS has offices.

Stack's writings suggest he was part of a loosely organized movement that stretches back to at least the 1950s. Some believe the 16th Amendment to the Constitution, which authorizes Congress to levy income taxes, was not legally ratified; it was ratified in 1913.

Others believe that paying taxes is purely voluntary. Still others believe in fictional loopholes that would exempt large groups of Americans from paying taxes if they were only in on the secret.

Believers aren't limited to anti-government militia members living off the land out West. Stack was a 53-year-old software engineer in Austin. Other followers include movie star Wesley Snipes and a decorated police detective in the nation's capital.

"They're fairly prevalent," said Mark Potok, director of the Intelligence Project for the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks extremist groups. "We've had a right wing tax protest movement going back several decades now. They were very hot in the 1990s, but they are very much still out there."

The center has documented five plots against the IRS or its agents since 1995, including one that year to blow up an IRS office in Austin. Potok said he was unsure if it was the same building Stack crashed the plane into.

In 2006, a Utah man was accused of threatening IRS employees with "death by firing squad" if they continued to try to collect taxes from him and his wife. The man, David D'Addabbo, pleaded guilty to one charge of threatening a government agent and was sentenced to five months already served.

Not all tax protesters resort to violence.

Snipes, star of the "Blade" trilogy and other films, was convicted on tax charges and sentenced to three years in prison in 2008 after claiming that Americans have no obligation to pay taxes and the IRS cannot legally collect them. The detective in Washington, D.C., Michael Irving, got a 14-month prison sentence last year after prosecutors said he fraudulently arranged for the police department to stop withholding taxes from his paychecks.

"Most of us are respectfully fearful of the IRS. Most people understand their authority," said Matthew J. Campione, a former IRS lawyer who is now a tax law specialist at the law firm of SmolenPlevy in Vienna, Va. "But you have people who are gullible, you have people who engage in wishful thinking, you have some people who are struggling to make ends meet."

In the letter on Stack's Web site, which has since been removed, Stack said he had gone to "tax code readings and discussions" where he learned about "wonderful 'exemptions' that make institutions like the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy." He said an attempt to claim similar exemptions inevitably cost him $40,000 and "10 years of my life."

He also complained about a 1986 change in the tax law that made it harder for engineers like himself to claim certain deductions as independent contractors, rather than salaried employees. One year, Stack wrote, he didn't file a tax return, "thinking that because I didn't have any income there was no need. The sleazy government decided that they disagreed."

The IRS has a Web site called, "Don't Fall for These Frivolous Arguments." Among them are:

—False claim: The filing and paying of tax is voluntary. IRS response: "The term voluntary compliance means that each of us is responsible for filing a tax return when required and for determining and paying the correct amount of tax."

—False claim: Wages, tips, and other compensation are not income because there is no taxable gain when a person "exchanges" labor for money. IRS response: "Congress has determined that all income is taxable unless specifically excluded by some part of the Code."

—False claim: Forming a business trust to hold your income and assets will avoid taxes. A family estate trust will allow you to reduce or eliminate your tax liability. IRS response: "Establishing a trust, foreign or domestic, for the sole purpose of hiding your income and assets from taxation is illegal and will not absolve you of your tax liability."

[GS78]

Alex Jones is whacked out.

[zephyp]

Alex Jones is whacked out.

I agree, however, he does make some decent points every once in a while.

I must admit that he is so right about one thing - we as Americans are so quick to believe what the MSM says. Why arent we as quick to believe what he says merely because he makes what appears to be wacko claims. I am convinced of a couple of things:

1 - part of what the MSM says is true, part is outright lie, and part is embellished

2 - same exact thing for what wackos like Mr Jones...

[moss20]

Wish Joe Stack Had Not Killed Himself!
By Chuck Baldwin
February 19, 2010


This column is archived at
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2010/c ... 00219.html


All of us are now aware of the Texas man who yesterday flew his private
plane into a 7-story Austin office building. Apparently, he intentionally
crashed his plane into the building to target the IRS offices that were
housed inside the facility.

As I am writing this column just hours after the event took place, there has
not yet been a lot of time for the major news media talking heads to spin
the story. By the time this column is released on Friday, however, I'm sure
we will all have been inundated with copious references to this man, Joe
Stack, as being "off his rocker," or similar assertions. Perhaps our friends
at DHS will label Stack a "right-wing domestic terrorist." However, Mr.
Stack apparently left behind a "suicide manifesto" explaining his actions.
After carefully reading Stack's manifesto, I am quite convinced that he was
not crazy, and he was not a "terrorist." However, he was angry.

A lot of us are angry--and for many of the same reasons that Mr. Stack was
angry! While I would certainly take exception to some of the things Stack
says in his manifesto, he said things that many of us are feeling.

Stack began his manifesto by saying, "If you're reading this, you're no
doubt asking yourself, 'Why did this have to happen?' The simple truth is
that it is complicated and has been coming for a long time."

He goes on to say, "Sadly, starting at early ages we in this country have
been brainwashed to believe that, in return for our dedication and service,
our government stands for justice for all. We are further brainwashed to
believe that there is freedom in this place, and that we should be ready to
lay our lives down for the noble [principles] represented by its founding
fathers. Remember? One of these was 'no taxation without representation' . . .
These days anyone who really stands up for that [principle] is promptly
labeled a 'crackpot,' traitor and worse."

For the most part, he's right about that, of course. It has been a long time
since the average hardworking American has been represented in Washington,
D.C. By and large, the politicians in DC represent only Big Money interests.
Just try talking with your congressman or senator and see how much personal
interest he or she takes in anything you have to say. As for emails,
letters, and faxes, unless they number in the tens of thousands, they are
mostly used as kindling for the fireplace.

Obviously, Mr. Stack had long felt the frustration of being ignored by these
pimps in Washington that we know as congressmen. He wrote, "While very few
working people would say they haven't had their fair share of taxes (as can
I), in my lifetime I can say with a great degree of certainty that there has
never been a politician cast a vote on any matter with the likes of me or my
interests in mind. Nor, for that matter, are they the least bit interested
in me or anything I have to say."

I suppose that just about every American could say the same thing.

Then, regarding our current tax system, Stack wrote, "Here we have a [tax]
system that is, by far, too complicated for the brightest of the master
scholars to understand. Yet, it mercilessly 'holds accountable' its victims,
claiming that they're responsible for fully complying with laws not even the
experts understand. The law 'requires' a signature on the bottom of a tax
filing; yet no one can say truthfully that they understand what they are
signing; if that's not 'duress' [then] what is. If this is not the measure
of a totalitarian regime, nothing is."

He also wrote, "However, this is where I learned that there are two
'interpretations' for every law; one for the very rich, and one for the rest
of us."

However, I think a better way of putting his statement would have been,
"There are two interpretations for every law; one for the GOVERNMENT, and
one for the rest of us." And only the most naïve among us would not
understand that statement.

According to Stack's manifesto, he earned an engineering degree with the
goal of becoming an "independent engineer." He said this about working his
way through college: "I was living on peanut butter and bread (or Ritz
crackers when I could afford to splurge) for months at a time."

I know that feeling! My wife and I married between my sophomore and junior
years of college, and for months we had a grand total of $15 a week to spend
on groceries. And believe me: that did not go very far--not even in 1974.
How many politicians on Capitol Hill do you think could even remotely relate
to Mr. Stack?

Stack later said, "I decided that I didn't trust big business to take care
of me, and that I would take responsibility for my own future and myself."

Wow! What a revolutionary idea: taking responsibility for yourself! Now I
know that practically no one on Capitol Hill can relate to Mr. Stack!

After quoting a portion of the tax law relating to Section 1706 (Treatment
of Certain Technical Personnel), Stack wrote, "The bottom line is that they
may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d). Moreover,
they could only have been more blunt if they would have came out and
directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave."

His manifesto clearly reveals bitterness and resentment toward the IRS, the
tax system, the banker and Big Business government bailouts, and the
emergence of police-state attitudes and actions in the aftermath of 9/11. He
expressed disdain for "the monsters of organized religion." He talked about
his move from California to Texas. He referred to a divorce and the way his
savings and retirement had been wiped out after a career of working
"100-hour workweeks."

Stack also noted, "The recent presidential puppet GW Bush and his cronies in
their eight years certainly reinforced for all of us that this criticism
rings equally true for all of the government." I can say "Amen" to that.

Stack's conclusion: "I have had all I can stand."

In what was obviously a reference to what he was about to do, he wrote,
"Nothing changes unless there is a body count."

Then, later he said, "But I also know that by not adding my body to the
count, I insure nothing will change. I choose to not keep looking over my
shoulder at 'big brother' while he strips my carcass, I choose not to ignore
what is going on all around me, I choose not to pretend that business as
usual won't continue; I have just had enough."

Stack wrapped up his manifesto by saying, "Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man,
let's try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well."

See Joe Stack's manifesto at:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,586627,00.html

My heart goes out to Joe Stack! The sentiments expressed above are shared by
millions of Americans who are also fed up with Big Brother. We are fed up
with our country being turned into a burgeoning police state, under the
rubric of "national security." We are fed up with the harassments of the
IRS. We know the "war on drugs" is merely the government's way of cutting
out the competition (this is exactly what more than one retired federal law
enforcement agent--employed in the drug war--told me). We know the "war on
terror" is nothing but an excuse to trample our constitutional liberties. We
are fed up with the voracious vampires known as the Federal Reserve sucking
the lifeblood out of the veins of America's hardworking Middle Class. We are
tired of the CFR, CIA, and America's State Department manufacturing
perpetual wars that cost trillions of dollars and thousands of American
lives for the benefit of the global elite. We are fed up with an arrogant
and oppressive federal government that is strangling the life and freedom
out of our states. We all share Joe Stack's pain!

I really wish Joe Stack had not killed himself, however. We need each other.
By taking his life, he reduced our strength. The global elites delight in
our demise. As we grow weaker, they grow stronger.

But the fight is not over; the battle is not lost! Rumblings of freedom's
revival can be felt across the length and breadth of this nation. The
clanging of liberty's resolve can be heard in hamlets and villages from
Montana to South Carolina. There are still millions of us--from virtually
every walk of life--who will not surrender our liberties without a fight!
And we have not yet begun to fight!

So, to the rest of us Joe Stacks out there: let's not fly our planes into
buildings. Let's not end our lives prematurely. Instead, get mad; get
organized; get educated; start equipping your heart, mind, and body for the
battle ahead. Let's fight; let's study; let's prepare; let's make every
would-be tyrant on Capitol Hill and Wall Street know that we are not going
to sit back and let them steal our country. Let's send a message, in no
uncertain terms, that if they want our pound of flesh, they are going to
have to come and get it--and if they do, it's going to cost them a whole lot
more than a pound of theirs!

Oh, Joe! I wish you had not killed yourself.

[gunderwood]

So, to the rest of us Joe Stacks out there: let's not fly our planes into
buildings. Let's not end our lives prematurely. Instead, get mad; get
organized; get educated; start equipping your heart, mind, and body for the
battle ahead. Let's fight; let's study; let's prepare; let's make every
would-be tyrant on Capitol Hill and Wall Street know that we are not going
to sit back and let them steal our country. Let's send a message, in no
uncertain terms, that if they want our pound of flesh, they are going to
have to come and get it--and if they do, it's going to cost them a whole lot
more than a pound of theirs!

I think this is more or less the conclusion GS78 and I came too. If you're tired of this nonsense, stand and fight it.

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -- Patton


GS78
Public emotion allowed the Patriot Act to pass more or less uncontested. Anyone who stood against it was silenced; no media coverage, nothing. The opposition was out there, but the general consensus of the American people was they don't want to listen. Even today most American's don't want to even discuss the possibly of the Patriot Acts being a mistake.

Yes, opportunity is a huge part of it, but you have to ask, opportunity for what? The PA was such a huge bill, I doubt that parts of it weren't already written before 9/11. Most likely were just sitting in the wing waiting for the opportunity. Those politicians certainly were not acting on emotion...so that means they deliberately and consciously are subverting the Constitution of the United States? Why do we stand for this again?

[zephyp]

Yes, opportunity is a huge part of it, but you have to ask, opportunity for what? The PA was such a huge bill, I doubt that parts of it weren't already written before 9/11. Most likely were just sitting in the wing waiting for the opportunity. Those politicians certainly were not acting on emotion...so that means they deliberately and consciously are subverting the Constitution of the United States? Why do we stand for this again?

Lets face it, every president and member of congress has an agenda or they would not be there. I think there are some who merely want to serve the people but those are the exception. Using opportunity to advance an agenda is something each and every one of us does. Its human nature and sometimes makes good sense.

Most of us stand for subversion of the Constitution merely because we dont understand it or the consequences. Some are hoodwinked into thinking we must give up rights to be safe.

I think we as a nation look more to laws that govern us rather than the Constitution. And, we take most of it for granted. Take a look around and you will see that virtually the only Constitutional right most are aware of is the 1st Amendment and they only know about the free speech part.

We've been convinced as a nation that there is no need to be concerned about the Constitution if our rights and liberties arent threatened by laws or if we need to be "safer." Big lie.

Case in point. SCOTUS just ruled that corporations can pay for election ads. Their ruling in essence grants a Constitutional right - free speech - to a non person entity. I bet the lawyers can have fun with that one in the Toyota case and others. Argument 1 - you cant grant some rights in the Constitution, its all or none. Argument 2 - this subpoena is for Toyota corporation. My clients name is Mr ToyoDa - not Toyota. Please go serve the document to Toyota corporation.

[gunderwood]

Yes, opportunity is a huge part of it, but you have to ask, opportunity for what? The PA was such a huge bill, I doubt that parts of it weren't already written before 9/11. Most likely were just sitting in the wing waiting for the opportunity. Those politicians certainly were not acting on emotion...so that means they deliberately and consciously are subverting the Constitution of the United States? Why do we stand for this again?

Lets face it, every president and member of congress has an agenda or they would not be there. I think there are some who merely want to serve the people but those are the exception. Using opportunity to advance an agenda is something each and every one of us does. Its human nature and sometimes makes good sense.

Yes, but this "opportunity" is to subvert the legal government and to enslave the people.

Most of us stand for subversion of the Constitution merely because we dont understand it or the consequences. Some are hoodwinked into thinking we must give up rights to be safe.

Probably the average American, but probably not the average forum member here.

I think we as a nation look more to laws that govern us rather than the Constitution. And, we take most of it for granted. Take a look around and you will see that virtually the only Constitutional right most are aware of is the 1st Amendment and they only know about the free speech part.

We've been convinced as a nation that there is no need to be concerned about the Constitution if our rights and liberties arent threatened by laws or if we need to be "safer." Big lie.

Agreed and perhaps that is part of the problem. Relying on the idiots in Congress vice the genius of the founders... I would add that the biggest lie on this topic is that the law is always right. People don't understand the difference between mala en se and mala prohibita. Mala prohibita is to be challenged every chance. When mala prohibita contradicts your rights, the founders held those laws to be null in void and treated as such, regardless of what the government said.

The government is sooo very good at convincing the masses that the problem is you, me, the people, corporations, the terrorists, health care, the axis of evil, etc. rather then them! Sure, there is immoral and unethical behavior between us and as long as there are imperfect humans there always will be, but so many of our problems today are from unintended consequences of government involvement in things it shouldn't be involved in.

[zephyp]

Probably the average American, but probably not the average forum member here.

Which is one big reason I think it critical that we need to discuss Constitutional rights - all of them and not just the 2nd...knowledge is power and a force multiplier.

[GS78]

So, to the rest of us Joe Stacks out there: let's not fly our planes into
buildings. Let's not end our lives prematurely. Instead, get mad; get
organized; get educated; start equipping your heart, mind, and body for the
battle ahead. Let's fight; let's study; let's prepare; let's make every
would-be tyrant on Capitol Hill and Wall Street know that we are not going
to sit back and let them steal our country. Let's send a message, in no
uncertain terms, that if they want our pound of flesh, they are going to
have to come and get it--and if they do, it's going to cost them a whole lot
more than a pound of theirs!

I think this is more or less the conclusion GS78 and I came too. If you're tired of this nonsense, stand and fight it.

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -- Patton


GS78
Public emotion allowed the Patriot Act to pass more or less uncontested. Anyone who stood against it was silenced; no media coverage, nothing. The opposition was out there, but the general consensus of the American people was they don't want to listen. Even today most American's don't want to even discuss the possibly of the Patriot Acts being a mistake.

Yes, opportunity is a huge part of it, but you have to ask, opportunity for what? The PA was such a huge bill, I doubt that parts of it weren't already written before 9/11. Most likely were just sitting in the wing waiting for the opportunity. Those politicians certainly were not acting on emotion...so that means they deliberately and consciously are subverting the Constitution of the United States? Why do we stand for this again?

I think one of the biggest disadvantages that americans have is FAITH. Faith that everything will work out........somehow. Faith that the government(congress, the President, Supremes) know what they're doing..... Faith that "we are good people, we help african villages and haitian earthquake victims ," etc.... Faith that "terrorists from Yemen, or saudi arabia can't hurt us, not here!! well after 9-11 that failth was shattered. Shattered faith is much like a chopin plate that falls from the wall, its still "kinda" nice, but its broken, sure it may be able to be glued together again, but it will never be the same. The majority of american people want that security back again, to 'know' they are safe from attack, hence the PA, restriction upon restriction in everyday life in exchange for a kind of FAITH in the restrictive entity, they must KNOW what they are doing , there must be a reason why I can't bring shampoo and toothpaste on my plane trip to grandmas house.......right? I mean, they must REALLY be watching everything. If they won't allow the little old lady to wear a hat pin,(like she is going to become a female jason Bourne in mid flight and kill everyone with it), The american people, with few exceptions are willing to trade the constitution for security. The government has known this for decades. We have been insulated from conflict, UNTIL 2001. Last week the TSA announced they will begin screening for "EXPLOSIVE RESIDUE" on passengers hands with "special" swabbing techniques.............oooooohhhh.......aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh, you could almost hear the crowds cooing with warm fuzzy secure feelings......that faith was building again...."they must really be doing their jobs"......."finally the TSA will be screening for potential EXPLOSIVES ON AIRPLANES"...., ofcourse WE know this is nothing more than a publicity stunt, but most people dont care. Its a good IDEA. Most of the american public doesnt stop to think about the fact that , first, they wont be SWABBING everyone, and two, what if someone else shoves the explosives up the arse of the host terrorist? then the body packed full of explosives wont have any "resdue" on their fingers will they? All the swabbing in the world is not going to stop an enemy of the USA from boarding a plane after being injected with small pox.

[BluemontGlock]

...need to go buy an extra mag holder...looks liek things are getting tense....