Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.

[Reverenddel]

My question still stands:

Can the owner of an establish override that law by stating, "On this property, we prefer everyone's handgun to be concealed."?

If so, it would be nice to have some "pro-gun restaurants".

[jadedone4]

INAL - but I'd say NO; despite being private property or the assertion of being private property, the state would "regulate" the facilties use of alcohol via desigation of restuarant/club.

If it were coded to be a private club (similar to a smoking ban governance) then, I'd say that one could make the argument that the owner had more leeway with regard to interpretation of the ABC requirement.

... still all boils down to the "contract" by the property owner (restaurant/club) responsibilities as designated via the ABC agreement (law of OC requirements); then the "contract" between the owner and client/customer, is secondary to that fact - unless there is a change.

[KennyS]

After careful consideration and sole searching, as well as reading many opinions on repealing concealed carry in restaurants, the bill to me is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
While there are many advantages to having a concealed permit we loose site of the fact that while it is not gun registration, it is gun owner registration. The only true repeal would be if it was law that people legally allowed to purchase and possess a fire arm can carry concealed or openly no permit needed. In allowing this repeal to move forward we are putting in the question of why do you need to openly carry, rather than conceal which will in turn make more business owners support the concealed permit only customers. Taking away the choice of many gun owners not only on how they carry but almost making it impossible to carry without a permit. I do have a permit but am concidering letting it laps as that piece of paper makes me no better than any other law abiding gun owner.

[jadedone4]

... reformers work within the system to effect changes.
... rebels work from outsie the system to effect changes.

both are/and have had equal success; my position is that OC'g as a requirement in a restaurant/club/bar, is retarded. CC'g as a requirement in a restaurant/club/bar is equally, retarded. Being able to CHOOSE which one is best for your particular station in life (i.e. non-drinking, responsible, appropriate place/groups, etc) is what we all seem to want. Having the CC, presents that we are willing (for now and until the laws change, greater in our favor) to take reasonable and fair step to meet the "other-side" halfway. Given that mostly in the US of A, there is an inherent fear of guns, etc - I see this as playing the game by their rules; for and towards the outcome of my desire.

[KennyS]

Saying that, it actually takes us back three steps. This year more focus even in the news media is showing open carry to be legal in some states. Just that little bit of acknowledgement settles a lot of people in the fact they now know it is legal. That along with the presence of OC as it is becoming more normal in some places can breaks the ice to a uneducated society. Also as outward show that just because someone has a gun it busts the myth of the OK Corral picture that some non gun people have. More ammo to our benefit. I just can’t see jeopardizing what we have in the hopes of a temporary solution that could go either way. Look at health care most don’t want it but it's trying to be jammed down our throats any way. To much or a gamble it sounds like to me.

[KennyS]

The more candy that is dangled, the more people get sucked it with look what the benefits are while slowly they forget where their roots lie. I see no where in the constitution that the rights to keep and bear arms are only for permit holders. Where an article in Old Va News makes a great point in that the bearing arms is not a privilege it is a right. So why should you have the permit for the privilege of carrying concealed? Many places after the repel will require CC instead of non permit OC. The privilege over the right is what it looks like to me. As well as a tool for the anti gun to falsely claim gun carry is a way of the past because of less OC being allowed or noticed so much for the visual of a responsible gun owner.

[MountainCat]

I looked up some establishments on the ABC website.

The distinction between a public establishment and a restaurant that serves alcohol is sometimes not clear cut.

Some hotels (with bars) were listed by the ABC with a hotel designation. Does that mean I can legally sit at the hotel bar and eat a burger with a concealed gun? Somehow I don't think so and the definition in 4.1.100 backs that up.
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... od+4.1-100

Other hotels were listed with a restaurant designation. If the restaurant/bar is open to the lobby (or in the lobby) does that mean I can't enter the hotel with a concealed gun?

Where is the line drawn in these multi-use establishments with poorly defined boundaries?

I believe Bass Pro in Ashland has a restaurant that serves drinks. I couldn't find it in the database. Does the restaurant designation stop at the restaurant doors or does it cover the entire store. Common sense would tell me that it stops at the restaurant doors but often law makers and their laws don't use common sense.

We need laws that can be applied by a person of reasonable intelligence without the need to research a database and send a FOIA request to the ABC.

[ProShooter]

My question still stands:

Can the owner of an establish override that law by stating, "On this property, we prefer everyone's handgun to be concealed."?

If so, it would be nice to have some "pro-gun restaurants".

No, the owner cannot give you permission to break the law.

[ProShooter]

I looked up some establishments on the ABC website.

The distinction between a public establishment and a restaurant that serves alcohol is sometimes not clear cut.

Some hotels (with bars) were listed by the ABC with a hotel designation. Does that mean I can legally sit at the hotel bar and eat a burger with a concealed gun? Somehow I don't think so and the definition in 4.1.100 backs that up.
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... od+4.1-100

I would say yes. Common sense dictates that the ABC Board uses 4.1-100 to designate the difference between hotel and restaurant when issuing a license. If it meets the hotel designation (and is not a restaurant in their eyes), then CC should be fine.

Other hotels were listed with a restaurant designation. If the restaurant/bar is open to the lobby (or in the lobby) does that mean I can't enter the hotel with a concealed gun? (Again, depends on their designation)

Where is the line drawn in these multi-use establishments with poorly defined boundaries?

I believe Bass Pro in Ashland has a restaurant that serves drinks. I couldn't find it in the database. Does the restaurant designation stop at the restaurant doors or does it cover the entire store. Common sense would tell me that it stops at the restaurant doors but often law makers and their laws don't use common sense. Its the physical restaurant area only, and here is their license link - http://www.abc.state.va.us/licenseeSear ... ense=53771

We need laws that can be applied by a person of reasonable intelligence without the need to research a database and send a FOIA request to the ABC.

[MountainCat]

Some hotels (with bars) were listed by the ABC with a hotel designation. Does that mean I can legally sit at the hotel bar and eat a burger with a concealed gun? Somehow I don't think so and the definition in 4.1.100 backs that up.
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... od+4.1-100

I would say yes. Common sense dictates that the ABC Board uses 4.1-100 to designate the difference between hotel and restaurant when issuing a license. If it meets the hotel designation (and is not a restaurant in their eyes), then CC should be fine.

I've been thinking about this some more.
I'm not a lawyer either but I would have to disagree.

The definition of restaurant for the purposes of CC is pretty much what most people think it is: A place to buy food that also sells alcohol for on-premise consumption.

"Restaurant" means, for a beer, or wine and beer license or a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, any establishment provided with special space and accommodation, where, in consideration of payment, meals or other foods prepared on the premises are regularly sold.

.....and ...

for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board ....

Any designation the ABC gives the establishment has no bearing because the definition is specifically given in the law.

Any lawyers here?

[ProShooter]

Some hotels (with bars) were listed by the ABC with a hotel designation. Does that mean I can legally sit at the hotel bar and eat a burger with a concealed gun? Somehow I don't think so and the definition in 4.1.100 backs that up.
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... od+4.1-100

I would say yes. Common sense dictates that the ABC Board uses 4.1-100 to designate the difference between hotel and restaurant when issuing a license. If it meets the hotel designation (and is not a restaurant in their eyes), then CC should be fine.

I've been thinking about this some more.
I'm not a lawyer either but I would have to disagree.

The definition of restaurant for the purposes of CC is pretty much what most people think it is: A place to buy food that also sells alcohol for on-premise consumption.

"Restaurant" means, for a beer, or wine and beer license or a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, any establishment provided with special space and accommodation, where, in consideration of payment, meals or other foods prepared on the premises are regularly sold.

.....and ...

for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board ....

Any designation the ABC gives the establishment has no bearing because the definition is specifically given in the law.

[/quote]

But, the full phrase is "granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia". If the ABC Board uses 4.1-100 to get its definition of a restaurant and calls it a hotel on the license instead, it only makes sense that they do not view the establishment as a restaurant based upon the criteria set forth in 4.1-100. If a state agency (with a LE division as well), says it ain't a restaurant, then by golly it ain't a restaurant!

[zephyp]

VA legislators have introduced 2 bills that would allow CC in restaurants that serve alcohol. From what I can tell looking through both - neither says anything about not being able to OC. So it looks like they are leaving the choice up to the individual.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... +ful+HB106

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... +ful+HB505

[KennyS]

While correct in theory that that does not limit our choice, it adds to the choices of the restaurant owner. Many know for them to be an anti gun can cost customers. As well some know that it gains them, at least now when it’s OC. I may be wrong but after the law is repealed I believe more places are going to say No guns except LEO and concealed permit holders. Having a permit many will abandon the common stand on the right to bear arms as it was, and just enjoy the added perks that a concealed permits give, all the while forsaking other gun owners with legitimate reasons for not wanting to broadcast to every government agency they own a gun. We had the numbers to make a difference in open carry and make statements in numbers about anti gun establishments. I believe that is because we all came together as there was only one way to carry. Will we have the same when the law changes? Is it truly pro gun if they limit your choice in manner of carry, or is it control? Why do we worry about concealed carry in restaurants when we can carry legal openly? Sooner or later OC will become brandishing as every ones attitude is going to be there is no real reason to OC meaning permit mandatory for all that want to carry.

[zephyp]

Kenny, CC is pretty important to me because of where I live - right in the heart of liberal land. People see you walking around here in certain areas OCing and they yell "gun!" So it would be very nice to have CC in restaurants. Having said that, you are right - it will give the owners a choice and I do expect to see more NO GUNS signs go up if this bill passes.

Small example: we had burgers the other night at Fudruckers in Annandale. VCDL goes there after their monthly meetings. I still got open mouthed stares. No one said anything, but you can still tell that they think you're some kind of freak merely because you're wearing a gun.

[KennyS]

Don't get me wrong I have a permit my self, and to me there are those times to be discrete. As well there are those hot summer days I find it more comfortable to OC. The more OC the more of a realistic view the public gets verses what the biased media wants them to believe. Every time people open carry the more the general public see's it and as well starts to except it. There are places now I go to that I used to be gawked at, now no one even bats an eye. I have even had people tell me personaly that my OC actualy made them reconsider the anti gun view. Many people may think of someone carrying a gun is a freak, but truthfully Isn't the greater freak the one with his pant around his knees, or playing the loud volger music to be heard several blocks away, or even the parent that won't control a child who publicly being destructive and disruptive. Why should something legal be looked down on as being more of an issue than things we see every day?

[jadedone4]

Kenny, I generally concur with your position/assessment; however, the way I see it - from my experiences OC'g (Fairfax County mostly) - is that folks who see me OC, generally believe that I am a LEO, because of demeanor and dress (mostly straight-lace khakis/Civie-BDU's/Jeans - pressed shirts, polo-styles, or the off-chance that I have to put on the suits, etc). So I have to ask how much of "educational-change" are we making when OC'g?

Only about 2, maybe 3 times have I been approached and "asked" if LEO and why I carry (the follow-up questions...); so in my instance, I have to assume that most believe that I am LEO and let me be. If there are "geico-eyes" around, I have not really noticed them - as I am paying more attention to what I am doing, not what others are concerned about, etc (the S/A is up, but as far as looking and smilng at sheeple, not on radar); I've asked the wife about her perceptions when we are out and about, and she states that she doesn't notice any difference in how folks act.

OK, going back to carrying in restaurants; have to agree with ProShooter - once I see an ABC license, I just move to OC; its simplier and a no-brainer WRT following the law, no matter how much it's rules/regulations, etc... resemble the plate of pasta I was about to order.

[MountainCat]

But, the full phrase is "granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia". If the ABC Board uses 4.1-100 to get its definition of a restaurant and calls it a hotel on the license instead, it only makes sense that they do not view the establishment as a restaurant based upon the criteria set forth in 4.1-100. If a state agency (with a LE division as well), says it ain't a restaurant, then by golly it ain't a restaurant!

Sorry to push the subject but I'm trying to get things straight in my head.

From: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... od+4.1-208

The Board may grant the following licenses relating to beer:

5. Retail on-premises beer licenses to:

a. Hotels, restaurants and clubs, which shall authorize the licensee to sell beer, either with or without meals, only in dining areas and other designated areas of such restaurants, or in dining areas, private guest rooms, and other designated areas of such hotels or clubs, for consumption only in such rooms and areas.

Looks to me like you can have an ABC hotel designation but technically also have a restaurant within it.