Kimber vs. SA Loaded

[viiiball]

I am in the market for a 1911 and have been doing a lot of research and holding quite a few guns. I have settled on either a Kimber or a Springfield Loaded. I think I have narrowed it down the the Kimber Custom TLE II or the SA Loaded BiTone (PX9104LP). Seems I can obtain either of these for around $920 from a local store (I prefer to support local than buy off Internet).

Anyone have any comments, positive or negative about either of these guns, manufacturers, etc? If you were me is there a direction you would go and why?

[zephyp]

I own a Kimber Custom II and its a nice pistol. Handles, points, and shoots great. Its a tad bit longer than I like but carries well in an IWB. Having said that its hard to beat Kimber reliability. On the political side, please read through the topic below. It might sway your decision on Kimber. Based on this, I've decided to take my business elsewhere but will keep my Custom II.

http://vagunforum.net/national-discussi ... t3193.html

I also have a Colt XSE Lightweight Commander and it is a very sweet gun. I simply love it. And, its in the price range you mentioned...

[viiiball]

DK, I read through that thread last night. I am not as swayed as others. I think manufacturers are in the market to sell guns, not necessarily to support any political process. I do not fault Kimber for working with the CA LEO organizations.

[zephyp]

DK, I read through that thread last night. I am not as swayed as others. I think manufacturers are in the market to sell guns, not necessarily to support any political process. I do not fault Kimber for working with the CA LEO organizations.

I agree they are in the market to sell guns and it wont hurt me one bit not to buy another Kimber or them. Something else I've thought about from time to time is some of the places where these gun manufactures have offices and factories -- NY, MD, etc. Go figure...

To me, the gun business is more than a business. Its a fight between us and the antis. Gun manufactures should realize that their business will suffer if they only sell to LE or government. They need us to survive unless the former is their business strategy to begin with. Having said that, I think they should consider the political aspect. If we go away its just going to hurt them too.

[gunderwood]

DK, I read through that thread last night. I am not as swayed as others. I think manufacturers are in the market to sell guns, not necessarily to support any political process. I do not fault Kimber for working with the CA LEO organizations.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Mine is that some firearm companies are begining to not support the civilian market. E.g. http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=971196

Large corporations like ATK are gobbling up firearms and ammo manufacturers and testing out no civilians allowed policies. I think this is dangerous. In the above example, the ammo is identical to the civilian version except the box. If you check the manufacturer product codes you will find that for Speer only the first digit changes; 2 for 20 round boxes (civ) and 5 for 50 round boxes (LE). If you can find the 50rnd LE boxes, they cost nearly the same as the 20 rounders. It makes good business sense to sell overruns of the GD LE on the open market. Keeps cost lower for everyone and makes sure our LE agencies are not short of ammo.

The generic problem is that political forces seem to be using this back door pressure on manufacturers to create a distinction between government/LE and civilian products. I.e. if you want a government contract you can't sell to civilians. This becomes like a defacto gun ban and in time only the government is allowed to have X.

As you stated, selling guns to make money is the point; the only real feedback a manufacturer takes seriously is sales. If you don't like their actions, you shouldn't buy their product. Kimber's actions don't seem to bother you and that is fine. I disagree. I bought a Barrett after he told CA LE to take a hike exactly because I wanted to support a manufacturer who was willing to stand on principle. I wanted a fifty for quite some time, but after that, I knew who's product I was going to buy and did.

[viiiball]

The generic problem is that political forces seem to be using this back door pressure on manufacturers to create a distinction between government/LE and civilian products. I.e. if you want a government contract you can't sell to civilians. This becomes like a defacto gun ban and in time only the government is allowed to have X.

I hear ya. But the problem is the government, not the manufacturer. But as you say, we are all entitled to our own opinion. And I don't have a problem with corporate America selling to law enforcement.

[graybeard321]

Viiball, I have the kimber Tactical II and I really enjoy shoting it, I also enjoy shooting my son's springfield so you cann't go wrong with either choice. I do agree with DK, we need to support Gun manufacturers that are going to support us. I remember back in the 90's when Smith & wesson supported the assault weapons ban and Bill Clinton. When I went looking for a new firearm many steered you away from them. As long as Kimber doesn't turn there back on the civilian customers I don't care if they sell to government.

[gunderwood]

The generic problem is that political forces seem to be using this back door pressure on manufacturers to create a distinction between government/LE and civilian products. I.e. if you want a government contract you can't sell to civilians. This becomes like a defacto gun ban and in time only the government is allowed to have X.

I hear ya. But the problem is the government, not the manufacturer. But as you say, we are all entitled to our own opinion. And I don't have a problem with corporate America selling to law enforcement.

Agreed, but manufacturers bear some of the responsibility too. I have no problem with law enforcement in general or with corporations selling to them. The problem for me is that Kimber went out of their way for an anti-gun law enforcement organization. Lots of manufacturers sell to law enforcement in places where the LE is anti-gun. E.g. Washington D.C.

I think there is a distinction between standard business with a party I disagree with and working up a special model to more or less honor them. If I only did business with people I agreed with, I would never do any business. However, if I was a gun manufacturer, I wouldn't exactly be working up a Brady Edition of my product no matter how much money she was willing to pay. That particular law enforcement agency has demonstrated they are rabidly anti-gun, just like Brady, so why would I create a special model to honor them?

[gunderwood]

To quit hijacking the thread and actually answer the question...

I don't think you can go wrong with either of those. Most decisions like this are made easier when you consider the fact that long term you will likely end up with both.

[viiiball]

Most decisions like this are made easier when you consider the fact that long term you will likely end up with both.

I think that's what the wife is worried about. But I took the plunge and bought the Springfield.

DSC_0026.JPG (110.39 KiB) Viewed 4902 times

Isn't she beautiful? The only thing I liked about the Kimber better was the checkering on the front and back straps. But this one was just too purdy to pass up.

[gunderwood]

Most decisions like this are made easier when you consider the fact that long term you will likely end up with both.

I think that's what the wife is worried about. But I took the plunge and bought the Springfield.

DSC_0026.JPG

Isn't she beautiful? The only thing I liked about the Kimber better was the checkering on the front and back straps. But this one was just too purdy to pass up.

Very nice. I am a fan of two tone looks too. I especially like polished triggers and hammers on 1911's. Congrats.

[LFS]

I'm drooling.

[nova]

Large corporations like ATK are gobbling up firearms and ammo manufacturers and testing out no civilians allowed policies. I think this is dangerous. In the above example, the ammo is identical to the civilian version except the box. If you check the manufacturer product codes you will find that for Speer only the first digit changes; 2 for 20 round boxes (civ) and 5 for 50 round boxes (LE). If you can find the 50rnd LE boxes, they cost nearly the same as the 20 rounders. It makes good business sense to sell overruns of the GD LE on the open market. Keeps cost lower for everyone and makes sure our LE agencies are not short of ammo.

I know this is an old thread but I felt the need to mention something here. The reason manufacturers sell the 20rd boxes at that price is due to the federal excise tax on ammunition which is 11% last time I checked. The manufacturer pays this and passes it along to the consumer. The ammo they manufacture that is intended for law enforcement or military is exempt from this tax, which is why it is cheaper than the stuff intended for the commercial market. This is why manufacturers are cracking down on the sale of LE ammo, it's because that ammo didn't have the excise tax paid for it, and they don't want to get into legal troubles for it.

yes, there should not be any tax on guns and ammo, just as there shouldn't be a poll tax, or a church tax, or....

[gunderwood]

Large corporations like ATK are gobbling up firearms and ammo manufacturers and testing out no civilians allowed policies. I think this is dangerous. In the above example, the ammo is identical to the civilian version except the box. If you check the manufacturer product codes you will find that for Speer only the first digit changes; 2 for 20 round boxes (civ) and 5 for 50 round boxes (LE). If you can find the 50rnd LE boxes, they cost nearly the same as the 20 rounders. It makes good business sense to sell overruns of the GD LE on the open market. Keeps cost lower for everyone and makes sure our LE agencies are not short of ammo.

I know this is an old thread but I felt the need to mention something here. The reason manufacturers sell the 20rd boxes at that price is due to the federal excise tax on ammunition which is 11% last time I checked. The manufacturer pays this and passes it along to the consumer. The ammo they manufacture that is intended for law enforcement or military is exempt from this tax, which is why it is cheaper than the stuff intended for the commercial market. This is why manufacturers are cracking down on the sale of LE ammo, it's because that ammo didn't have the excise tax paid for it, and they don't want to get into legal troubles for it.

yes, there should not be any tax on guns and ammo, just as there shouldn't be a poll tax, or a church tax, or....

In 20 round boxes they are over a $1 a round. In 50 round boxes they are $0.50 - $0.60 a round. A 11% excise tax does not make up the difference. Also, at those prices for 50 round boxes, they are still more expensive than the contract stuff actually delivered to LE agencies. IIRC this is because if the ammo is not sold directly to the LEA, they must pay the excise tax. The ammo is still cheaper than the 20 round boxes, but more expensive than the exact same box delivered under contract to a LEA.

The only manufacturer who is cracking down on LE ammo sales to civilians is ATK. ATK happens to own Federal and Speer (lots of other stuff too), those are nearly impossible to find anymore. However, LE Winchester Rangers Ts have been and still are easy to find. Same goes for others too.

I posted the long story below, but the short of it is: ATK got leaned on by the government/DoD, they caved. The ATK distributor letters demanding no LE ammo sales to civilians were floating around a while back.

AMMO FACTS – NO RUMORS!

BOBDAT

ATK, a Honeywell spinoff from the early ‘90’s, is a publicly-traded, six-billion-dollar-per-year, Department of Defense supplier (DoD).

They have an exclusive contract with the U.S. Army to run the Lake City Arsenal small arms ammunition manufacturing plant (reputed to be the world’s largest) and to operate the Radford Arsenal, which is the exclusive supplier of TNT.

Almost 80 percent of ATK revenue comes from supplying aerospace and armament systems to the DoD, including rocket motors, rocket propellant, missile motors and guidance systems and a host of other super-sophisticated combat systems, including chain-guns for Apache helicopters, Bradley Fighting Vehicles and STAR-wars satellite/space systems.

Eighteen percent of ATK revenue comes from other DoD contracts, subcontracts to other DoD contractors, sales of armament and combat systems to foreign governments and, lastly, commercial products.

The undisclosed but obviously minimal revenue contribution from commercial products includes ammunition contracts with the FBI, Homeland Security, the Federal Firearms Training Center and state and local police departments.

ATK’s three big commercial ammunition customers include WalMart, Cabela’s and Gander Mountain. Sporting goods distributors are dead last.

It’s important to note that ATK’s minimal commercial revenues include sales of products sold under the following brand names:

Ammo - Federal, CCI, Speer, Blazer, Estate Cartridge.
Accessories - RCBS, Outers (including Hoppes), Champion, etc.
Optics - Weaver, Simmons, Redfield, Nitrex, Bushnell, etc.

If you combine all of the above brand-related revenues along with all other commercial and sporting goods-related revenues, the total contribution to revenues appears to be less than 10% of ATK’s total business. Remember that this disclosure is for revenues, not profits. Profits, of course, are a fraction of the revenues. Not a very big number, for sure.

Why is the above important to shooting enthusiasts? Because, this profile of ATK demonstrates how insignificant sporting goods revenue contributions are to a major company like ATK, although they continue to acquire familiar brands of sporting goods products. This relentless acquisition and consolidation of brands within one corporate entity like ATK dramatically reduces competition while providing for tightened corporate control over price and availability of sporting goods products. Retail buyers of firearms and ammunition-related products find reduced choice, limited or no availability and rigidly controlled but ascending pricing - not good.

Underlying this concentration of brand power under one entity like ATK within such a vertically integrated market as in the case of ammunition, for example, is the federal governments overwhelming influence due to its massive eighty-to-ninety percent revenue contribution overall. It is entirely conceivable to imagine that government policy in one federal branch may quite easily be implemented through another federal branch with ruthless efficiency.

For example, because all DoD suppliers must align their operations with applicable government regulations, they become subject to audits, fines and civil and criminal prosecution for a whole assortment of possible shortfalls in compliance with those federal regulations. Can you not imagine how influential the government is in this type of scenario? If the Executive branch wanted ATK to stop selling ammunition to civilians, how hard do you think it would be to get that message across, loud and clear?

This government “clout” also applies to companies like Olin (Winchester) and others because of their status as federal contractors and, as a result, they become subject to the same audits, fines, prosecutions, etc. Because the government is, in fact, the very largest consumer of goods and services as well as being the exclusive regulator of all manners of commerce, they have the absolute power to influence the production, distribution and pricing of all goods and services produced.

How does this affect you? In our increasingly regulated society, ATK has recognized, as have the other ammunition makers, that future revenue contributions from the sporting goods market matter less than the revenue potential from supplying the government. Government sales opportunities are plentiful for corporations which ‘play ball’ and ‘act responsibly’, in the government’s view. It’s just common business sense to accept that reality.

The popular Federal and Winchester brands already include broad categories of ammunition designated specifically as “Law Enforcement” products. These LE products are sold by the factories directly to large federal, state and local agencies. Less significantly, these LE products are sold through tightly-controlled “law enforcement” distributors to the rest of the police and military-type markets, namely very small municipalities and individual officers. Neither you nor, your favorite gun dealer, can buy these products. Neither can the previously-mentioned big direct retail customers like WalMart, Cabela’s or Gander.

This restricted product availability is not the result of legislation by the U.S. Congress or any state legislature nor, is it the result of any judicial decision. This outright ban on sales of certain categories of ammunition to the sporting public is the direct result of these manufacturers ‘playing ball’ with and ‘currying the favor of’ agencies of the United States government. Clearly and simply, these government agencies, through various procurement specifications and contract requirements, are implementing public policy via influence over commercial activity as it pertains to the free markets rather than through the legislative process which has proven to be time-consuming and difficult as well as sometimes unpopular with voters. In simple terms, if you want to ‘feed at the federal trough’ you’ll run your business the way the feds want you to (and restrict certain ammunition products from civilian availability). Or else, get ready for audits, fines, prosecutions, contract cancelation and blacklisting for future bidding. This is very real and extremely troubling.

Why is this important? Because the more you bury your head in the sand and adopt an attitude of denial while chanting that it can’t happen here, the preceding facts clearly demonstrate how easily it does happen here and that it has been happening here for quite some time.

What can you do about it? Repeatedly write to your elected officials at the local, state and federal levels of government and urge them to roll back or hold back additional restrictions on firearms products. Repeatedly write to the news directors and general managers at your local television and radio stations and the editors of your local newspapers and urge them to portray Second Amendment ‘Right-to-Carry” issues more objectively.

Join the NRA. Actively participate in their organizational meets if only as a spectator. Contribute to the NRA-ILA to help lobby for a more sensible legislative and regulatory environment for firearms ownership. And, finally, express yourself moderately, courteously and respectfully when discussing responsible firearms ownership so as to bring respect to firearms enthusiasts of all types.

It is happening here!





For quite some time there has been questions regarding "LEO" rounds.

What are they, is there a difference, can I buy them, and how can TDS sell them are just some of the questions I get everyday.

Far from the definitive thesis, here are some answers.

More often then not, the answer to what are they and is there a difference is that there is NO difference between something marked LEO and a box of rounds with no LEO markings.

The cases, primers, powders and bullet loads are often exactly the same. They come off the same machines.

Rarely does a manufacturer develop a product and then designate that it be sold only to what can best be described as the smallest market possible (LEO represents an incredibly small percentage of all ammunition sold in USA).

Factually the main difference is that LEO ammunition is sold in 50 round boxes and bears some Law Enforcement or Duty Ammo marking on that box.
For example Speer Gold Dot 23966 (230grn GDHP 45Auto) and 53966 (230grn GDHP 45Auto) have exactly the same ballistics according to Speer’s published charts, yet the 23966 is sold in 20 round boxes with no LEO markings while the 53966 is sold in 50 round boxes marked “Duty Ammunition”.
The first number (2 or 5) in the case of Speer indicates whether it is 20 or 50 rounds and therefore “civilian” or “duty” ammunition.

To answer the question “Can I buy them”, the simple answer is this – unless there is some state/city/municipality ruling prohibiting a particular bullet configuration or some reason for you to not possess ammunition – the answer is YES you can.

This whole separation from civilian and duty ammunition can according to some be traced back to the Black Talon ammunition that Winchester developed. The Black Talon is now the T Series (previously the SXT) ammunition sold under the Ranger moniker. The Black Talon became the stuff of Urban Legend and when Congress became involved, the round was withdrawn and redesigned, relabeled and reclassified. Next thing you know there was LEO and non-LEO ammo.

Federal, Remington, Speer (a division of Federal) and Winchester as well as others market LEO/Duty ammunition as well as other “types” of ammunition. Each have tried to put forth their version of a prohibition on the sale of “duty” branded ammunition. This seems primarily based on profitability than anything else.

Using the Speer GD example it’s easy to see the logic behind the prohibition.
23966 sells retail for $22 to $24 (20 rounds)
53966 sells retail for $28 to $30 (50 rounds)
Given the same percentage of markup it’s fairly clear that the profitability of the manufacturer lies with the 20 round boxes.

In regards to how TDS can sell these rounds – TDS is classified as a “Law Enforcement Dealer”. This means that our focus is on the LEO and Military community.
This allows us to purchase and resell items that fall into the LEO category.
We also sell to the general bullet buying populace.
We require ID/Credentials and have “Ammunition Statements” that must be completed before a purchase can be completed or discount applied.

To keep the manufacturers happy, TDS does not stock to sell the 50 round boxes to the general bullet buying public. Let me spell that out a bit further – TDS purchases 50 round boxes for sale to the Law Enforcement community. In the event that the agency that they were ordered for backs out of the sale this ammunition is considered fair game.
TDS also purchases from agencies ammunition that can be considered factory fresh (less than 6 months old), rounds obtained in this way are noted on the site.

Hopefully this helps answer some questions.